TD 6: Dr. George Barna – Raising Spiritual Champions: Restoring Biblical Foundations in Families and Churches

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Americans are all over the map in terms of what they think success is.

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You know, biggest house in the neighborhood, more money than I could ever spend,

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you know, the trophy spouse, the big title,

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the fancy reputation, the Porshe, the

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drive, you know, whatever it may be. And God says, what “are you, stupid?”

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No! You know, success is

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consistent obedience to him. Laughing in the face of imposter

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syndrome. And coming to you from the epicenter of manly overconfidence

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in northeastern Oklahoma. I’m your host, Garritt

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Hampton, and you are listening to the Thinking Dad. I’m

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so glad you’ve joined me today. I have a really great show lined up for

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you. Doctor George Barna is joining me today. Dr.

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Barna is the director of research at Arizona Christian University’s

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Cultural Research Center, and his work has

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been critical to hundreds of ministries, thousands

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of churches, numerous political campaigns, including

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four presidential campaigns. This guy has

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done some seriously important work. And

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I hold in my hand today Raising Spiritual Champions,

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which is his 60th book that he’s either

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authored or co authored, and it is a barn burner.

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We’re going to be talking about that today. I can’t wait to get into

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you for supporting the Thinking Dad podcast. All right, let’s get into

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our conversation with Dr. Barna. Well, Dr. Barna, it’s a pleasure

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to talk with you today. For my listeners who may not know you,

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would you take a minute to tell us about your family and yourself?

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Sure. I’m basically a

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researcher, writer, speaker kind of guy.

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Work here at Arizona Christian University. Years ago, I

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had started something called the Barna Group. Originally it was the Barna

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Research Group. My wife and I put that together.

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We worked in it for about 25

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years before I sold it back in 2009.

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And since then I’ve been doing a variety of research activities.

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And now I’m here at the university. So I go back and forth

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between Arizona and California my wife, Nancy,

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has. Well, let’s see, we’ve been married since

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1978, so 45 years or

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so. Went out for about seven years before that. So she’s

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been putting up with me for more than half a century. She’s just put more

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jewels in that crown every day, I’ll tell you. And we have

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three daughters, one of whom is married and has three

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grandchildren. All three of them live near us in

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California. So that’s kind of the thumbnail. I

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love it. And I love that you get to be near your

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grandkids. Even though you work out of state, you go

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back and forth. Yeah. And I try to spend as much time with them as

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possible. Right now, they’re five, seven, and nine years old. So

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this is, for me, their prime discipleship years.

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And I want to be able to spend as much time with them as I

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can, you know, talking with them about the things that

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matter, just being there for them as a

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mentor, hopefully. But, yeah, we have a great

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relationship, and we all love baseball, so how could it go? I love

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it. Yeah. Very cool. Well, I want to

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talk about Worldview today, and that’s really, uh, your

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wheelhouse. But before I get into it, I want to set the stage

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a little bit, because we look at acts chapter

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17, and Paul is in Greece addressing the

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men of Athens, and he says this. He says, I

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perceive that in every way you are very religious,

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for I passed along and observed the objects of your worship.

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I also found an altar with this inscription, to the

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unknown God. What therefore you worship is

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unknown. This I proclaim to you. And he goes

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on to preach the gospel to them. But first, he has

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to start with the very beginning, that foundation of who

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God is, what he’s done from creation,

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and then his plan of redemption. Because even though these people were

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very religious, they didn’t have the foundation that the Jews

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had of the law and the prophets and the story of

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creation and this knowledge of who God was. And I

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feel like we’re at a place in american culture right now

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where we’re kind of in the same place. We’re very religious, but

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we don’t know who God is. We don’t necessarily believe that

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he is the creator. And last week, I got an

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email from your PR company, who we love,

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and they sent us a copy of the

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2024 American Worldview

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Inventory. Can you tell us a little bit about the inventory and what you

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guys do and what you found this year?

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Yeah. Garritt, this is the fifth year that we’ve been doing that

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annual survey. At the beginning of every calendar year,

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we do a big national survey with a representative sample

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of adults from across America. And what

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we’re consistently trying to do is understand the worldview

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of Americans. What are its strengths? What are its weaknesses?

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What kind of worldview do people possess? How

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deeply are they wedded to that particular worldview?

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How many people have a biblical worldview? What

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direction is that moving in? Is it growing, shrinking? All those

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kinds of things. We look at different segments of the population

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in relation to their worldview. So every year then,

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we put out a series of small reports

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drawn from that research. And

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probably what the PR firm sent you was one or two of those reports that

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have come out so far this year. Looking at what

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we’ve discovered in 2024, one of the key

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elements of which is that once again, we

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have a decrease in the

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proportion of adults in America who possess a biblical

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worldview were down to just 4%. Now,

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when I started measuring this back in the early nineties, I was working with Chuck

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Colson and others on trying to assess

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worldview. Back then, we were at about 12%

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30 some years ago. And the reason that

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Chuck wrote his landmark book, how now shall we

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live, came out of that research because he was so

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alarmed that it was 12%. Well, ever since

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that time, we keep declining just a little

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bit, a little bit at a time, but we’ve lost

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67% of what we had back then.

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This is a real danger point for America if

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we want to talk about the crisis in

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America. I know the border is a big deal. I know crime

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is a big deal. I know the economy is a big deal. But we’ve

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got all of those issues and challenges

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because of the loss of biblical worldview in America.

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Amen. Everybody’s got a worldview. You need one to get through the

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day. It’s the filter that helps you make every decision you make. And if you

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don’t like what’s going on in the culture, it’s because we’re making bad

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decisions. And we’re making bad decisions because

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our worldview is no longer God’s way of

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seeing things, the biblical worldview. So worldview,

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I would say, really is the crisis of our

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time. Yeah. What I found, I think most

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terrifying wasn’t just that people in

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America have no biblical worldview, but you actually

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find that many people in the church don’t have a biblical, biblical

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worldview. And even worse, it seems that not

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only do we not have a biblical worldview, but we’re taking

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distinctly anti christian worldviews and

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rolling them into this idea of Christianity

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and you find that the dominant worldview now is something called

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syncretism. Would you explain syncretism to us?

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Yeah. Syncretism is very complex, but it’s

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easy to understand. All it is is people being

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exposed to many different worldviews. Every day

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when we watch television, we listen to music, we listen

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to radio, on the news or on tv, we watch a

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movie. Every one of those is bombarding us with

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messages. And underlying what they’re communicating

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is a worldview. So we’re bombarded with

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different worldview messages, competing worldview

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messages every day. Syncretism is simply

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where we’re exposed to all of that, and we pick and choose the

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different elements that we like, the ones that feel most

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comfortable, make us feel most secure, seem most popular,

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maybe feel most comforting to us,

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seem most intellectually reasonable. Whatever the reason is, and there

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are all kinds of reasons, we pick and choose all these different things,

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and we bolt them together into a customized

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worldview that doesn’t represent

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any defined worldview, such

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as postmodernism or Marxism or

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biblical theism, which is the biblical worldview, or

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eastern mysticism. There are dozens of

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well defined worldviews, and what Americans tend to

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do is say, I’m not picking any one of those lock,

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stock, and barrel. I’m going to develop my own

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that represents who I am, how I think, how I

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feel, how I see myself, how I want to live. And

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then we run with that worldview. And because it

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doesn’t reflect a well defined worldview,

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it’s simply a mishmash of all these different ideas. That’s what’s

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known as syncretism. Hmm. It’s like there isn’t a

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standard, right, an objective truth that we can look to

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to establish one true worldview. It’s crazy,

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right? Well, I want to talk about that. I have

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my wife’s favorite book in my hand, and I’m sure

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this would be one of my favorite books, except I can’t get it from

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my wife. As I prepared for this interview, I had to steal it from

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her nightstand, take out her bookmark and get into it,

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and I marked it up myself. But this book is

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powerful people raising spiritual champions.

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And Yvette, got to talk to you on the schoolhouse rocked

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podcast about this book. And what I love is

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this isn’t just a book for adult christians. This is a

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book for adult christians who intend to turn

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over their values and beliefs to their children. And

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so I want to start actually with your

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motivation to write the book, because you. You write

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something in there that’s very important. You say that you were motivated

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by the idea of starting well and finishing well. Talk about

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that for me. I mean, look at me. I’m an old man, okay? I mean,

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how much time could I possibly have left? So, you know,

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about four or five years ago, I looked in the mirror one day. I don’t

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usually look in the mirror, but I looked in the mirror and I thought, whoa,

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what happened? Who is that old man? And it got me to

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thinking about the fact that, you know what? I’ve got to

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transition my thinking now to I’m

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in my final era of ministry.

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And so I know I’m going to be standing before the Lord, and

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he’s going to ask me, what’d you do? Why’d you do it? How’d you do

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it? And I want to hear him say, well done, good and faithful

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servant. So to do that, I want to finish

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well. I want to finish strong. I want to make

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sure that I get done everything that I think he put me on the planet

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to do for his kingdom. And so I sat

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back and thought about, what would that be? I

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mean, I’ve kind of been doing what I think he’s called me to do for

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years, but how do I finish well? So I thought, all

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right, wait a minute, I’m a researcher. So I went back

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and I took my 200 most recent national research

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projects, and I got out of pad and I started

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making notes. What did I learn from each one of these studies? And

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I’m making notes, making notes, and I wound up with a lot of

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pages. And one of my strengths, I think, is

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I’m able to take a lot of data and synthesize it down to what

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matters. And so I did that with this pad that I just

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filled up with bullet points, all these things that we glean

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from a wide variety of research projects.

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And when I looked at it, it came down to

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one basic thing, which was most, if

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not all of these problems would dissipate if we

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had a biblical worldview as a nation, as a

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church, as families, as individuals.

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And we don’t have that. That’s why we’re in the mess we’re in. So I

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thought, okay, I’ve got to write about worldview.

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And knowing that I have no idea when the

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Lord’s going to pull the plug on me, it’s like, okay, let me start with

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what might be the most important one first.

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And going back to some of the research I’ve been doing for the last 20

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years in particular, that’s research about worldview and about

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children and we know that a person’s worldview is fully developed

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before they reach the age of 13. So I thought, I’ve got to

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write a book about what are we doing with our children to

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help them have a biblical worldview. Because if we don’t do

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it before they reach the age of 13. I’ve done a lot of research

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that shows it’s not going to happen. With some people, it

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will. Everything I say, you have to understand, I’m a

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sociologist, so I work with averages as a

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researcher. That’s what we do. We say, well, what’s the most common

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point of view that people have? What’s the most common belief, the most common statement

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they’ll make? That’s the average. And so

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looking at that, I know that we’ve got to work with

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children. So that’s what this book was developed for, was

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understanding where children at in America today,

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particularly in the spiritual space, are they disciples of

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Jesus? Do they have a biblical worldview

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and talking to people who can influence

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that outcome. So it’s really to parents, it’s to grandparents,

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it’s to children’s pastors, it’s to

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coaches and tutors and mentors of children,

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teachers. These are the people who have influence on our

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kids. And so it’s a book to them, hopefully to wake them up

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and shake them up and say, look, we’re failing. We’re

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failing miserably. And so whatever you’re doing,

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stop doing it. Let’s rethink this, and here’s

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some data that may help you to get a better grip on what

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could you do to help raise the children in

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America today, in your family, in your school,

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on your team that you coach? Whatever it is

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that you do to influence kids, we need to influence them to

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be more like Jesus. Having a biblical worldview simply

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means that you have the ability and you have the goods

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to think like Jesus. And that only matters

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because you do what you believe. And so if you can think

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like Jesus, then you can live like Jesus. And

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that’s what makes you a disciple of Jesus. The fact that

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you are intentionally trying to live like him. And so

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having that worldview enables you to think like him. So you can live

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like him. Yeah, I. Man, I love that. And

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I, I have to tell you, I appreciate that you

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even took the time to do this, and I can tell you it’s having a

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huge impact. I was at lunch last Sunday and

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sitting next to a good friend, and he said, man, have you read this book

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by Dr. Barna, raising spiritual champions? And I told him, yeah,

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I haven’t had the chance because Yvette stolen it from us. But I’m

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going to get to it and I get to talk to him. But this is

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our heart, to turn over our worldview to our, to our kids

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and to see them walk faithfully with Christ. And as you

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speak, I’m struck by something. Even basic

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salvation has to be based on

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a basic building block of biblical worldview. Because we don’t walk now

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with Christ. Right. We have to base what we believe

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about salvation on what is said in the Bible. And even

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though we won’t have a fully mature worldview as

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new christians, even our basic salvation is based on

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that. So I want to ask you, in the book, you define

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what a biblical worldview is and you talk about seven

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cornerstones. Can you walk us through those and just lay the

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foundation of what is a biblical worldview?

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Sure. A biblical

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worldview. I’ve got a friend,

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Doctor Wayne Grudem, who teaches over at Phoenix seminary. Brilliant

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theologian. He’s written some of the textbooks everybody reads in

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seminaries. Great guy, great man. And

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we were talking about Worldview together one day and

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he looked at me and said, well, you know, George, really,

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to have a biblical worldview, you’d have to know and

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do everything on every page of the Bible. It’s like,

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it’s like, Wayne, don’t do this to me. But I mean, that’s

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true. And honestly, none of

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us are probably capable of that.

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So we’ve got to do the best that we can at

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knowing the key elements that the Bible teaches. I mean, if we

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just start with the, the central core principles

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and get to a place where we really own those as part

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of who we are, it’s not just intellectual ascent,

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but it’s something where we embody

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those truth principles that God’s given to us. We

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believe them, we live them, we talk about them, we

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hold ourselves accountable to them. Really, that’s where a

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biblical worldview leads us. And you get there

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by embracing more and more scriptural truth

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each day, reading God’s word and

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he’ll open up a new insight to us and we’ve got to own that.

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But where do you start? That’s the most common question

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that I get from the people where I speak and

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I teach about these things, or I teach about that book and say, you

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got to do this with your children. But you’ve got an issue.

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Most parents in America, most born again christian parents

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in America do not have a biblical worldview. It’s

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down in the single digits 8% of them. And so

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what about the other 92%? Well, most of them aren’t even bothering to go to

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church. They don’t read the Bible. They’ll never hear me. They’ll never hear the book.

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But those who do come, what I tell them is, you know what? You got

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to be honest about this. And if you’re not there, you got to start

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someplace. So let me suggest to you the seven

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cornerstones of a biblical worldview. These are

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not a complete biblical worldview, but they give you a

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great foundation on which to build a more

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complete and mature biblical worldview. What are they? Very

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simple stuff. This is what we used to consider Sunday

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school 101. But, of course, most churches in America no longer

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have Sunday school. You know, we’re trying to jam everything through small

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groups. Small groups are inadequate for trying to build

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disciples. They’re good at building community, but not bringing people

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deeper in spirituality. So what do you do? You’re going to have to get to

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know these things. And, parents, if you don’t know these things, it’s

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okay. Your children don’t, either. And you only got to be about 10 seconds ahead

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of your kids because they don’t know. So, you know, if you can get

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this and then start talking with them about these things, start

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living this out so they can see it, because how you

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model being a disciple of Jesus is

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probably the most important thing you’ll do. But anyway,

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what are they? Number one, believing that God exists. The God

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who created the universe is all powerful, all knowing.

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He’s all loving. He’s just. He’s holy.

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He cares about you. He wants a relationship with

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you. Number one, believe that. That God

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exists. And believing that begins to change everything in

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your life. Because when you believe that he exists and you

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begin to unpack his character, know who he

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is, you come to understand, you know what? Life isn’t about

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you. It’s not about me. It’s all about him. He created

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us for his purposes. So God exists.

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The God of scripture exists. Get to know him, read about

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him, study about him, enjoy him. Secondly,

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understand that you, too, exist. But

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part of your existence is that you’re born into

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sin. Right from day one, you’re a sinner. I mean, the

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Bible tells us that we lean toward

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evil. There’s nothing good in us

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because Adam’s sin wrecked us. And

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so that’s part of. Part of our identity is

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we are sinners in need of somebody

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to rescue us from the consequences of

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our sinful nature. Cornerstone number

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three is that God knows this. He knows everything.

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Remember, he’s omnipotent and he loves us,

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but because he’s holy, he’s perfect, he’s sinless.

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We’ve got a problem. We’re distanced from him by our sin.

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And so he sent Jesus to earth to save us from the

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consequences of our own sinfulness. And

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so what we can do is acknowledge that we are sinners.

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Don’t fight it. Don’t deny it, don’t reject it.

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Own it. That’s who we are. But don’t like

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it, reject it in the sense that I don’t

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want to be a sinner. I want to be loved by God. I want to

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love God. I want to be close and intimate with him. And so

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if I confess to Jesus that I am a sinner,

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I don’t want to be a sinner any longer, please rescue me

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from the consequences of who I am at

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base nature and then promise to

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repent, which basically means that I’m going to do

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everything in my power and I’m going to ask Jesus to give me his holy

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spirit so that I’ve got his power to resist

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sin, to run from sin, to reject temptation.

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Jesus will help us do that, but we’ve got to make that

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commitment acknowledging that we’re sinners, saying, yep, I don’t want to live that way

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anymore. Save me, Jesus. Give me your holy spirit to fight.

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Number four, cornerstone, is

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recognizing that absolute moral truth exists.

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You don’t get to determine what truth is. I don’t get to

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determine what truth is. None of us do, because

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God determines what truth is. And

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when he says it, it’s an absolute. There’s

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no debating it, there’s no questioning it. It

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is because the perfect one who’s

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omnipotent knows everything. He says it is

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truth, end of story, period. And so

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cornerstone number five is realizing

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that, well, it’s one thing for it to exist,

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but how would I know what absolute moral truth is? Most

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Americans say, well, I know because I rely on my

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feelings. Thank you for playing wrong answer. The right

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answer is God tells

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us what absolute moral truth is by

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giving us the Bible. That’s what the Bible is. It’s

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God who is truth. He’s the

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embodiment of truth. Everything about him is

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true. He loves us enough that he said, these

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yahoos that I created, they’re never going to figure it out if I don’t give

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him a cheat sheet. He gave us the Bible, and

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his word decodes truth for us.

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He put that in there and explains to us

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what truth is. Now cornerstone

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number six relates to that in that it tells us

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what our purpose is. And we may have all

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kinds of ideas about why we’re on the face of the earth,

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but he tells us, look, you’re there for

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my purposes. I created you,

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I get to determine why you live.

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And he tells us that the reason that we live is to know and

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to love and to serve him with all of our heart and

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soul and mind and strength. Amen. And Jesus

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called that the most important commandment of all.

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And so that’s what we need to dedicate ourselves

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to. And as we’re thinking about the choices we make every moment of every

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day, we’ve got to go back to, does this serve my purpose

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of knowing, loving and serving God with all my heart, mind, strength and soul?

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And then the 7th cornerstone adds onto that and

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says, as I’m pursuing my purpose, how will I

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know when I’m actually achieving it, when I’m doing

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well at it? What is success? And again,

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Americans are all over the map in terms of what they think success

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is. Biggest house in the neighborhood, more money than I could ever

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spend, the trophy spouse, the big

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title, the fancy reputation, the

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portion, the drive, whatever it may be. And God said, what are

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you stupid? No, success

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is consistent obedience to him. And the

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Bible teaches us that. And we know that that’s absolute truth

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and it relates to our purpose in life. And he

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gave that to us so that we would recognize that he who lives

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and has all power and command of everything,

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that’s what he’s given to us as our purpose and how to know

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if we’re doing it. So if you can

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look into and grasp those seven

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cornerstones and own them as your

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personal chief identity, that

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helps you to become a disciple, that’s really your identity. You’re on earth to

457
00:28:01,180 –> 00:28:04,312
follow Jesus and those of us who commit

458
00:28:04,368 –> 00:28:08,184
ourselves with all the strength and wisdom and

459
00:28:08,224 –> 00:28:11,744
resources that we can muster to follow him.

460
00:28:11,904 –> 00:28:15,728
Yeah, that makes us disciples. Jesus.

461
00:28:15,776 –> 00:28:19,576
In the book, I talk about the six ways Jesus defines what a disciple is.

462
00:28:19,680 –> 00:28:22,832
You go back and study those, and that’s a great way of holding yourself

463
00:28:22,888 –> 00:28:26,528
accountable. But it starts by owning these seven

464
00:28:26,576 –> 00:28:30,218
cornerstones and then building on that as

465
00:28:30,266 –> 00:28:33,866
you live every day. Read the Bible, listen to what the spirit is

466
00:28:33,890 –> 00:28:37,234
telling you in terms of how to interpret that and how to apply

467
00:28:37,314 –> 00:28:40,682
that in your life. That’s the way to live.

468
00:28:40,858 –> 00:28:44,346
Amen. I love that within those is just a

469
00:28:44,410 –> 00:28:47,818
simple encapsulation of the gospel.

470
00:28:47,986 –> 00:28:51,682
Repentance, faith and walking with Christ. You

471
00:28:51,698 –> 00:28:55,410
know, we have in our front room a copy of Doctor Wayne

472
00:28:55,442 –> 00:28:59,290
Grudem’s a systematic theology book that’s two

473
00:28:59,322 –> 00:29:03,082
and a half inches thick. And I love his answer

474
00:29:03,258 –> 00:29:06,858
in that. Truly, to have a fully formed biblical

475
00:29:06,906 –> 00:29:10,294
worldview, you have to know, follow, obey

476
00:29:10,794 –> 00:29:14,610
every page of the Bible. But this is God’s

477
00:29:14,642 –> 00:29:17,974
grace to christians is that salvation

478
00:29:18,394 –> 00:29:22,002
does not require a PhD in systematic

479
00:29:22,058 –> 00:29:25,766
theology. Salvation is simple, and he offers it to

480
00:29:25,790 –> 00:29:29,566
all through his son. And it requires a simple act

481
00:29:29,590 –> 00:29:33,230
of repentance and faith. But as christians, we get

482
00:29:33,262 –> 00:29:36,878
to walk and grow and read and learn and

483
00:29:36,926 –> 00:29:40,678
then transmit our faith to our kids, which I think is the

484
00:29:40,726 –> 00:29:44,414
great prize for christians to, you know, live

485
00:29:44,454 –> 00:29:48,222
out the great commission and the great commandment even in our homes,

486
00:29:48,318 –> 00:29:51,990
and then let that go out from there. I want to ask

487
00:29:52,022 –> 00:29:55,662
you, you did mention something in there that I thought was interesting.

488
00:29:55,718 –> 00:29:58,710
You said small groups are inadequate for building

489
00:29:58,782 –> 00:30:02,590
disciples. And I want to touch

490
00:30:02,622 –> 00:30:06,406
on that because I need to ask you, what then is the role of

491
00:30:06,430 –> 00:30:10,086
the church and how would you structure discipleship in the

492
00:30:10,110 –> 00:30:13,934
church? Let me answer it this

493
00:30:13,974 –> 00:30:17,594
way. The book that I’m writing, one of the three

494
00:30:17,634 –> 00:30:21,418
books I’m working on now, is about how do you disciple

495
00:30:21,466 –> 00:30:25,162
adults? It’s incredibly difficult because very

496
00:30:25,258 –> 00:30:29,066
few adults have a biblical worldview. And if

497
00:30:29,090 –> 00:30:32,690
you don’t have a biblical worldview, it’s virtually

498
00:30:32,802 –> 00:30:36,314
impossible. At least based on my research looking at the six

499
00:30:36,354 –> 00:30:40,186
factors Jesus gave us about, how do you describe or define a

500
00:30:40,210 –> 00:30:43,962
disciple? Virtually impossible without a biblical worldview. Because if you’re

501
00:30:43,978 –> 00:30:47,826
not thinking like Jesus, you’re not going to act like him. So you

502
00:30:47,850 –> 00:30:51,130
got to go there. So as I’ve been looking at

503
00:30:51,162 –> 00:30:54,410
discipleship and what actually works in the

504
00:30:54,442 –> 00:30:58,234
process, the one thing that small

505
00:30:58,314 –> 00:31:01,730
groups do that’s very helpful toward building

506
00:31:01,802 –> 00:31:04,610
disciples is it facilitates

507
00:31:04,682 –> 00:31:07,986
relationships, and discipleship is all about

508
00:31:08,050 –> 00:31:11,882
relationship. But what I’ve discovered is that

509
00:31:12,058 –> 00:31:15,834
small groups, that’s about where they end in terms of their

510
00:31:15,874 –> 00:31:19,242
value for building disciples. Typically, I mean, obviously,

511
00:31:19,298 –> 00:31:23,074
exceptions all the time, but typically they’re not very

512
00:31:23,114 –> 00:31:26,666
helpful. Why? Because it’s a group of people sitting around sharing their

513
00:31:26,690 –> 00:31:30,250
ignorance. What I found is that disciples

514
00:31:30,322 –> 00:31:34,042
get made by somebody who, let’s say

515
00:31:34,178 –> 00:31:37,738
on a discipleship scale of one to ten is an

516
00:31:37,786 –> 00:31:41,554
eight, looks back at the individuals that he

517
00:31:41,594 –> 00:31:44,978
knows and finds

518
00:31:45,026 –> 00:31:48,746
somebody who on that same discipleship scale might be a

519
00:31:48,770 –> 00:31:52,610
five, six, seven, and goes

520
00:31:52,642 –> 00:31:56,050
to them and says, you know what? I’d like to hang out with

521
00:31:56,082 –> 00:31:59,818
you. Because I think that we could help each other in our

522
00:31:59,866 –> 00:32:02,934
spiritual walk. And that person’s intention

523
00:32:03,354 –> 00:32:07,116
is to download for them, whatever it

524
00:32:07,140 –> 00:32:10,348
is that they’ve learned that’s gotten them up to stop eight on that

525
00:32:10,396 –> 00:32:14,212
journey, he or she wants to grab them by the hand

526
00:32:14,268 –> 00:32:18,068
or the shoulder and help them move forward on that

527
00:32:18,116 –> 00:32:21,916
pathway. Most american adults, in

528
00:32:21,940 –> 00:32:25,324
terms of their christian faith, are not

529
00:32:25,404 –> 00:32:28,700
moving forward. They are where they

530
00:32:28,772 –> 00:32:32,292
are. And the research I’ve been doing shows that they pretty much

531
00:32:32,348 –> 00:32:35,938
stick there for years and years and years.

532
00:32:36,106 –> 00:32:39,706
They don’t make much progress. Why? Because what we do in

533
00:32:39,730 –> 00:32:43,258
churches doesn’t help them. You know, we

534
00:32:43,306 –> 00:32:46,810
preach at them, we put them in small groups, which,

535
00:32:46,882 –> 00:32:50,294
frankly, are designed for two primary purposes,

536
00:32:50,754 –> 00:32:54,562
one of which is to build relationships among those people

537
00:32:54,618 –> 00:32:58,442
so people feel connected to the church. And that relates to

538
00:32:58,458 –> 00:33:02,294
the second reason, which is to keep them coming to the church. But it’s

539
00:33:02,334 –> 00:33:06,014
really not about discipleship. And

540
00:33:06,054 –> 00:33:09,126
so if we want discipleship, number one, there’s got to be a

541
00:33:09,150 –> 00:33:12,694
relationship between a more mature disciple and a less

542
00:33:12,734 –> 00:33:16,502
mature disciple. It’s got to be one on one. It’s got

543
00:33:16,518 –> 00:33:20,110
to be a situation where they meet frequently

544
00:33:20,302 –> 00:33:23,734
and they talk about all aspects of

545
00:33:23,774 –> 00:33:27,606
life, because discipleship covers every dimension of who you

546
00:33:27,630 –> 00:33:31,454
are and how you live. And what the

547
00:33:31,494 –> 00:33:34,894
discipler needs to be doing is intentionally thinking

548
00:33:34,934 –> 00:33:38,758
about whatever the issues are in the life or the

549
00:33:38,806 –> 00:33:42,526
challenges in the life of the person that I’m discipling. I want

550
00:33:42,550 –> 00:33:46,326
to understand them, I want to be sympathetic to them, but

551
00:33:46,350 –> 00:33:50,070
I want to be bringing God’s word into them. And

552
00:33:50,102 –> 00:33:53,474
I need to be modeling for that person. I’m discipling

553
00:33:53,854 –> 00:33:57,670
how I deal with those same kinds of challenges, not

554
00:33:57,702 –> 00:34:01,342
because I’m perfect, but because maybe I’ve learned a thing or

555
00:34:01,358 –> 00:34:05,158
two that would help that other individual to grow,

556
00:34:05,246 –> 00:34:08,590
to move down the pathway of mature spiritual maturity,

557
00:34:08,702 –> 00:34:12,314
biblical maturity. And that’s my job.

558
00:34:13,734 –> 00:34:16,638
A great discipler is a

559
00:34:16,686 –> 00:34:19,806
master at socratic

560
00:34:19,870 –> 00:34:23,626
dialogue. Now, socratic dialogue

561
00:34:23,770 –> 00:34:27,426
is kind of a fancy term for don’t tell people

562
00:34:27,490 –> 00:34:31,330
what to do. Just ask them questions about what they’re doing and why they’re

563
00:34:31,362 –> 00:34:34,626
doing it. And through that, that

564
00:34:34,690 –> 00:34:38,426
then breaks down the defenses of the person

565
00:34:38,490 –> 00:34:42,058
that you’re discipling and makes them curious

566
00:34:42,146 –> 00:34:45,666
about the things that you’re asking about. You’re asking them

567
00:34:45,770 –> 00:34:49,557
why they do something. You’re asking them why or

568
00:34:49,605 –> 00:34:53,033
how they came to that conclusion, that that was the best thing to do.

569
00:34:53,573 –> 00:34:57,349
And eventually they’re going to think, well, maybe this person

570
00:34:57,421 –> 00:35:01,069
has some ideas on that. And then they start asking you questions about,

571
00:35:01,101 –> 00:35:04,749
well, how would you handle it? Why would you handle it that way?

572
00:35:04,861 –> 00:35:07,753
Have you ever done that how did it turn out?

573
00:35:08,413 –> 00:35:11,877
And as the more mature discipler,

574
00:35:12,045 –> 00:35:15,837
you not only get to answer those questions, but you get to bring biblical

575
00:35:15,885 –> 00:35:19,614
principles into your answers. And now that’s at the center of your

576
00:35:19,654 –> 00:35:23,470
conversation. That’s how discipleship works. That’s what

577
00:35:23,502 –> 00:35:26,958
Jesus did. That’s the only reason that I think it works

578
00:35:27,086 –> 00:35:30,774
is Jesus modeled that for us. And so

579
00:35:30,814 –> 00:35:34,614
the more that we can take that into our relationships with people

580
00:35:34,734 –> 00:35:38,438
who are willing to grow, maybe even have a desire

581
00:35:38,526 –> 00:35:41,594
to grow as a follower of Jesus,

582
00:35:42,134 –> 00:35:45,576
you know, those are some of the important elements embedded in that process.

583
00:35:45,750 –> 00:35:49,564
Small groups don’t facilitate that because every person in that

584
00:35:49,604 –> 00:35:53,332
group is at a different place on that continuum. Every person

585
00:35:53,388 –> 00:35:57,036
in that group needs personal attention. Every person

586
00:35:57,100 –> 00:36:00,468
in that group has to have a different approach, a different

587
00:36:00,556 –> 00:36:04,356
answer to what they’re struggling with and how they’re struggling with

588
00:36:04,380 –> 00:36:07,868
it and what they could be doing that would advance

589
00:36:07,956 –> 00:36:11,476
them on that pathway. And so this whole group

590
00:36:11,540 –> 00:36:15,386
thing, it’s terrific for making us feel like we’re part

591
00:36:15,410 –> 00:36:18,970
of, quote unquote, the church. That’s great, but let’s not

592
00:36:19,002 –> 00:36:22,666
confuse it with a discipleship program. Yeah. There

593
00:36:22,690 –> 00:36:26,498
are a few elements that are critical to church life.

594
00:36:26,666 –> 00:36:30,090
The first is that the pastor is teaching the

595
00:36:30,122 –> 00:36:33,874
word faithfully. One of the important ones, though, is

596
00:36:33,914 –> 00:36:37,640
fellowship. There’s corporate worship. There’s teaching of the word

597
00:36:37,802 –> 00:36:41,548
we break to break bread together. And fellowship, as believers

598
00:36:41,676 –> 00:36:45,340
and small groups do, fill that hole in a good way and that you do

599
00:36:45,372 –> 00:36:48,812
build relationships. Um, I do think it’s important to feel

600
00:36:48,868 –> 00:36:52,700
attached to the body, but I agree with you that it

601
00:36:52,732 –> 00:36:56,304
doesn’t necessarily create that deep, deep relationship with Christ.

602
00:36:56,884 –> 00:37:00,380
What you’re talking about, though, was all predicated on

603
00:37:00,532 –> 00:37:04,172
the fact that you have to have someone who is spiritually, spiritually

604
00:37:04,228 –> 00:37:07,654
mature. You talk about that eight, and

605
00:37:07,734 –> 00:37:11,406
unfortunately, we find that in the church currently, there aren’t many

606
00:37:11,430 –> 00:37:15,174
of those eights who are able to minister to the fives. So I

607
00:37:15,214 –> 00:37:18,990
want to get into why we are in this place and

608
00:37:19,022 –> 00:37:22,670
how we make more eights. But first I need to take a

609
00:37:22,702 –> 00:37:25,934
quick break and do a little bit of

610
00:37:26,014 –> 00:37:29,798
business, and then we’ll get right back to it. Men,

611
00:37:29,846 –> 00:37:33,246
if you’re enjoying this conversation, I have to ask a favor of

612
00:37:33,270 –> 00:37:36,870
you. Please share this show. As you know, the

613
00:37:36,902 –> 00:37:40,606
Thinking Dad is a brand new podcast, and we need your help to get

614
00:37:40,630 –> 00:37:44,022
the word out. We want to see this encouragement reach

615
00:37:44,118 –> 00:37:47,862
millions of men, but we can’t do it without you. So

616
00:37:47,918 –> 00:37:51,486
please take a minute to share the show. If you’re watching the video on

617
00:37:51,510 –> 00:37:55,190
YouTube or another video platform. Please take a minute, click

618
00:37:55,222 –> 00:37:58,914
the like button, subscribe to the channel, and then leave a comment.

619
00:37:58,994 –> 00:38:02,386
It really does help with the algorithms. If you’re just listening to the

620
00:38:02,410 –> 00:38:06,258
podcast, please rate and review the show that lets

621
00:38:06,306 –> 00:38:09,994
other people know why they need to be listening. Also,

622
00:38:10,154 –> 00:38:13,722
you’ll notice, in honor of Dr. Barna, I’m wearing my

623
00:38:13,778 –> 00:38:17,482
“Think Biblically” t-shirt. You can stop by the Thinking Dad

624
00:38:17,538 –> 00:38:20,874
store, get your own shirt, and start to think

625
00:38:20,914 –> 00:38:24,632
biblically. It really does help to support the show. And then I want to

626
00:38:24,648 –> 00:38:28,440
ask one more favor of you. As I mentioned, CTCMath

627
00:38:28,552 –> 00:38:32,088
has come in in a big way this year to support the Thinking Dad

628
00:38:32,216 –> 00:38:35,848
right from the get go. They were there with us because they believe in this

629
00:38:35,896 –> 00:38:38,464
mission. Would you take a minute? Go to

630
00:38:38,504 –> 00:38:42,272
CTCMath.com and just drop them a quick note saying thank

631
00:38:42,368 –> 00:38:46,080
you for supporting the show. And if your kids need a

632
00:38:46,112 –> 00:38:49,638
great math curriculum that will really help them establish

633
00:38:49,776 –> 00:38:53,554
a solid foundation, check them out. You can even try it

634
00:38:53,594 –> 00:38:57,314
for free CTCMath.com. All right, let’s

635
00:38:57,354 –> 00:39:01,026
get back into it with Dr. Barna. Okay, we

636
00:39:01,050 –> 00:39:04,490
talked about those eights on the discipleship scale.

637
00:39:04,682 –> 00:39:08,250
But as you look at the research, you’re finding that very few people,

638
00:39:08,362 –> 00:39:12,170
even in the church, have a solid biblical worldview,

639
00:39:12,242 –> 00:39:15,890
including many times pastors, youth pastors,

640
00:39:15,962 –> 00:39:19,626
worship pastors. How do you feel we’ve gotten here?

641
00:39:19,730 –> 00:39:23,290
Well, that’s a four

642
00:39:23,362 –> 00:39:24,574
hour conversation.

643
00:39:26,954 –> 00:39:30,374
Maybe the short of it is, part of it is that

644
00:39:30,714 –> 00:39:32,894
the local church has dropped the ball.

645
00:39:34,754 –> 00:39:38,042
Part of the way that I could maybe best describe that is

646
00:39:38,098 –> 00:39:41,694
by talking about the research we’ve done with pastors.

647
00:39:42,394 –> 00:39:46,230
One of the things that we discovered is that when

648
00:39:46,262 –> 00:39:49,950
we ask a representative national sample

649
00:39:49,982 –> 00:39:53,806
of pastors, is your church effective in ministry?

650
00:39:53,990 –> 00:39:57,222
We find that more than four out of five of them, well over four out

651
00:39:57,238 –> 00:40:00,646
of five of them say, oh, yes, we’re effective in ministry. It’s like,

652
00:40:00,670 –> 00:40:04,046
great. And then our follow up question is, how do you know

653
00:40:04,070 –> 00:40:07,918
that? What we found is that the

654
00:40:07,966 –> 00:40:11,374
typical church in America, christian church, measures

655
00:40:11,454 –> 00:40:15,170
five things to determine whether or not they’re effective

656
00:40:15,202 –> 00:40:19,026
in ministry. How many people attend the church, how

657
00:40:19,050 –> 00:40:22,674
much money the church raises, how many programs they offer, how many

658
00:40:22,714 –> 00:40:26,546
staff people they’ve hired, and how much square footage they’ve

659
00:40:26,570 –> 00:40:29,650
built out on their campus. And the

660
00:40:29,802 –> 00:40:33,554
assumption is, or the thinking behind that is, if

661
00:40:33,634 –> 00:40:37,162
all five of those numbers are bigger this weekend than they were last

662
00:40:37,218 –> 00:40:40,774
week, the same weekend 52 weeks ago,

663
00:40:41,254 –> 00:40:44,854
a year ago, we’re a healthy and growing

664
00:40:44,894 –> 00:40:46,994
church. That’s the phrase that gets used.

665
00:40:48,854 –> 00:40:52,454
I’m. A measurement guy, Garritt, so I’m happy they’re measuring

666
00:40:52,534 –> 00:40:56,222
stuff. But as a measurement guy, I’ve learned, and

667
00:40:56,278 –> 00:41:00,006
in some cases, learned the hard way, if you measure the wrong things,

668
00:41:00,110 –> 00:41:03,742
you’re going to create the wrong things. I would

669
00:41:03,798 –> 00:41:07,510
suggest that when what you’re measuring is attendance and

670
00:41:07,542 –> 00:41:11,320
money and programs and staff and square footage, Jesus didn’t die

671
00:41:11,352 –> 00:41:14,936
for any of those. Which says to me, oh, my

672
00:41:14,960 –> 00:41:17,764
gosh, I think we’re measuring the wrong things.

673
00:41:18,824 –> 00:41:22,644
And when you do measure those things,

674
00:41:22,984 –> 00:41:26,400
what is it that they say about why you exist

675
00:41:26,472 –> 00:41:30,248
and what you consider success to be? Well,

676
00:41:30,296 –> 00:41:33,584
basically it says, the bigger the better. And

677
00:41:33,624 –> 00:41:37,382
so the shortcut way of thinking about it is

678
00:41:37,488 –> 00:41:41,330
we want to be a megachurch. And if we become a megachurch, then we’re effective

679
00:41:41,362 –> 00:41:45,130
in ministry. And I can tell you from a number of other research

680
00:41:45,202 –> 00:41:48,746
projects that I’ve done, that’s usually not the

681
00:41:48,770 –> 00:41:52,450
case. There are some great mega churches in America, but most

682
00:41:52,482 –> 00:41:56,290
of them are just kind of piddling along. They’re very good at marketing, but they’re

683
00:41:56,322 –> 00:41:59,894
not necessarily great at discipling. So

684
00:42:00,634 –> 00:42:04,328
that’s one issue. The second issue is the family. It’s not just

685
00:42:04,376 –> 00:42:07,888
the local church. It’s the family as well. Parents,

686
00:42:08,056 –> 00:42:11,824
biblically speaking, have the primary responsibility for

687
00:42:11,864 –> 00:42:15,296
raising their children to be disciples of Jesus.

688
00:42:15,480 –> 00:42:18,844
Right. As I allude to in the book,

689
00:42:19,224 –> 00:42:22,512
raising spiritual champions, the research that’s in there that we did for the

690
00:42:22,528 –> 00:42:25,712
book, most parents, that’s not even on their radar

691
00:42:25,768 –> 00:42:29,488
screen. When we ask them if they’re successful as

692
00:42:29,536 –> 00:42:33,120
parents, most of them say yes, and it has

693
00:42:33,192 –> 00:42:36,484
nothing to do with what they’re doing spiritually with their children.

694
00:42:36,864 –> 00:42:39,684
That’s not one of the criteria for success.

695
00:42:40,184 –> 00:42:43,784
So I think those are two dominant things. But then the

696
00:42:43,824 –> 00:42:47,464
third one is that we’ve allowed the culture

697
00:42:47,624 –> 00:42:50,856
to raise our children. Right now, the

698
00:42:50,920 –> 00:42:54,736
dominant influence on the minds and hearts of children in

699
00:42:54,760 –> 00:42:57,884
America is the arts and entertainment media industry.

700
00:42:58,464 –> 00:43:01,776
As I did our research, trying to figure out what makes us think what we

701
00:43:01,800 –> 00:43:05,336
think and do what we do. What we discovered is that it’s

702
00:43:05,400 –> 00:43:08,816
primarily from all the media messages that

703
00:43:08,920 –> 00:43:12,528
we allow ourselves to be exposed to

704
00:43:12,576 –> 00:43:16,040
every single day. Thousands and thousands

705
00:43:16,152 –> 00:43:19,360
of those messages. And as I said at the top of our

706
00:43:19,392 –> 00:43:22,164
interview, every one of those messages

707
00:43:22,784 –> 00:43:26,224
is founded on a worldview.

708
00:43:26,764 –> 00:43:30,292
And so every day we’re being bombarded with thousands of worldview

709
00:43:30,348 –> 00:43:34,028
messages. Our children are being bombarded with

710
00:43:34,076 –> 00:43:37,676
thousands of worldview messages. And neither parents

711
00:43:37,820 –> 00:43:41,420
nor churches are there to monitor that and

712
00:43:41,452 –> 00:43:45,188
to screen that and to minimize it as needs to be

713
00:43:45,236 –> 00:43:49,004
done for the good of our children and for the

714
00:43:49,044 –> 00:43:51,864
benefit of them becoming disciples,

715
00:43:52,934 –> 00:43:56,270
because, again, I’ve got a chapter in the book looking at the

716
00:43:56,302 –> 00:43:59,582
media that our children are exposed to. We did content

717
00:43:59,678 –> 00:44:03,238
analysis of that, and I can tell you very confidently

718
00:44:03,286 –> 00:44:06,998
that our children, even the children of born again

719
00:44:07,046 –> 00:44:10,350
parents, are not being exposed to

720
00:44:10,422 –> 00:44:13,514
biblical messages through the media that they’re watching.

721
00:44:15,054 –> 00:44:18,714
Those are three of the dominant elements. Yeah. As you

722
00:44:18,754 –> 00:44:22,414
talk about the measurement aspect in churches,

723
00:44:22,994 –> 00:44:26,786
I’m struck by conversations I’ve had with my dad, who attended

724
00:44:26,850 –> 00:44:30,546
Bible College in the early seventies. And at the time,

725
00:44:30,610 –> 00:44:33,894
they were just starting these courses on church growth

726
00:44:34,554 –> 00:44:38,386
that were core to what would become the progression, I

727
00:44:38,410 –> 00:44:41,802
guess, through the nineties and the two thousands and today,

728
00:44:41,978 –> 00:44:45,546
where we’ve grown to a place where we don’t even recognize churches

729
00:44:45,690 –> 00:44:49,418
unless they have hundreds of members on multiple sites. And yet

730
00:44:49,466 –> 00:44:52,938
what we’ve recognized, um, our family has had the unique

731
00:44:52,986 –> 00:44:56,186
position of traveling the country quite a bit,

732
00:44:56,330 –> 00:45:00,130
visiting churches in many towns and then settling in a new

733
00:45:00,162 –> 00:45:03,914
town and trying to find a church, actually, during COVID which

734
00:45:03,954 –> 00:45:07,794
made everything harder. But what you find as you visit these

735
00:45:07,834 –> 00:45:11,178
churches is so many of them have made it such a high

736
00:45:11,226 –> 00:45:15,042
priority to look good to the community and to be inviting

737
00:45:15,098 –> 00:45:18,890
to the community that they’re just the community. These, I

738
00:45:18,962 –> 00:45:22,610
like to call them broad road churches, and that they’re just no

739
00:45:22,682 –> 00:45:26,530
different from the. From the community. And I’m

740
00:45:26,562 –> 00:45:30,386
glad that you turned the conversation toward parents, because, actually,

741
00:45:30,570 –> 00:45:34,354
I don’t think that this solution is necessarily going to be found

742
00:45:34,394 –> 00:45:37,806
in churches. What I’ve grown to believe is that

743
00:45:37,930 –> 00:45:41,542
churches are the way they are because the people sitting in the

744
00:45:41,558 –> 00:45:45,342
pews are demanding that they be that way. It. It is

745
00:45:45,398 –> 00:45:48,854
one thing for pastors to have, let’s say, an ego that’s driven by

746
00:45:48,894 –> 00:45:52,550
growth, right? But if the people sitting in the churches don’t demand

747
00:45:52,622 –> 00:45:56,070
that the church is biblically faithful and that discipleship is

748
00:45:56,102 –> 00:45:59,238
happening and that they’re looking different from the world,

749
00:45:59,406 –> 00:46:02,910
nothing’s going to change. And so I’m reminded

750
00:46:02,982 –> 00:46:06,734
of deuteronomy six. And what we’re

751
00:46:06,774 –> 00:46:10,222
talking about in disciple making really

752
00:46:10,318 –> 00:46:13,966
starts at home. I’d actually like to read this real

753
00:46:13,990 –> 00:46:17,782
quick. I have it pulled up. Deuteronomy six, six and seven

754
00:46:17,838 –> 00:46:21,598
says this. And these words that I command you today shall be

755
00:46:21,646 –> 00:46:25,446
on your heart, and you shall teach them diligently to your children,

756
00:46:25,590 –> 00:46:29,342
and you shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk

757
00:46:29,438 –> 00:46:33,284
by the way, when you lie down. And when you rise, this

758
00:46:33,324 –> 00:46:36,824
is disciple making. And the first thing I’m struck by

759
00:46:37,164 –> 00:46:40,884
is that before we can even talk of these things while we walk

760
00:46:40,924 –> 00:46:44,364
along the way, these things have to be on our

761
00:46:44,404 –> 00:46:47,756
hearts. So as Christians, we have to be

762
00:46:47,780 –> 00:46:51,556
dedicated to knowing the truth, growing in the truth before we

763
00:46:51,580 –> 00:46:55,420
can even share the truth. And yet, in your book, you mark

764
00:46:55,492 –> 00:46:59,304
that. The quote here is research reveals

765
00:46:59,344 –> 00:47:02,464
a paltry 2% of parents of

766
00:47:02,504 –> 00:47:06,256
preteens have a biblical worldview, which

767
00:47:06,280 –> 00:47:09,992
is just terrifying. So I guess what I

768
00:47:10,008 –> 00:47:13,720
would ask you is, how do we get those eights?

769
00:47:13,872 –> 00:47:17,648
I know that you talk about how we get the fives to be eights,

770
00:47:17,776 –> 00:47:21,608
how we grow those people and disciple those people. But where do we

771
00:47:21,656 –> 00:47:25,296
start now to build those eights? Well, I

772
00:47:25,320 –> 00:47:28,604
think part of it is going to the eight

773
00:47:29,304 –> 00:47:33,032
and helping them to understand that the only people

774
00:47:33,088 –> 00:47:35,964
that make disciples are disciples.

775
00:47:36,944 –> 00:47:40,640
And that’s because you can’t give what

776
00:47:40,672 –> 00:47:44,432
you don’t have. You’re not a disciple. You’re not going to make somebody else a

777
00:47:44,448 –> 00:47:47,804
disciple. How could you do that? You couldn’t even make yourself one.

778
00:47:49,764 –> 00:47:52,264
It’s important that that 8%

779
00:47:53,284 –> 00:47:57,012
realize, you know what? This is a special time in american

780
00:47:57,108 –> 00:48:00,940
history. The country is in danger. The

781
00:48:00,972 –> 00:48:04,564
church has deteriorated. Our families are

782
00:48:04,604 –> 00:48:07,900
dissipating. This is not a normal

783
00:48:07,972 –> 00:48:11,348
time, so to speak. It’s an emergency

784
00:48:11,516 –> 00:48:15,340
or crisis time. And so if you are a disciple

785
00:48:15,372 –> 00:48:19,204
of Jesus, you know, going back to the common phrase in Ruth, you know,

786
00:48:19,324 –> 00:48:22,940
you’re here for such a time as this. Amen. This is

787
00:48:23,012 –> 00:48:26,820
your moment. This is when we need you

788
00:48:27,012 –> 00:48:30,204
to rethink everything you’re doing and recognize,

789
00:48:30,284 –> 00:48:33,964
again, like we were talking about with the seven cornerstones, it’s not

790
00:48:34,004 –> 00:48:37,628
about you. You’re here for him. You have

791
00:48:37,676 –> 00:48:41,268
become a disciple by his grace. And

792
00:48:41,396 –> 00:48:44,900
what he wants from you is that you will help

793
00:48:44,972 –> 00:48:48,546
other people to become disciples. Hes never going to

794
00:48:48,570 –> 00:48:52,154
stand in heaven when youre there before him and say, so

795
00:48:52,234 –> 00:48:55,434
did you get a raise? Did you make that

796
00:48:55,474 –> 00:48:59,162
promotion? Did you move into the better neighborhood?

797
00:48:59,218 –> 00:49:02,162
None of that matters. What hes going to say is, how many people did you

798
00:49:02,178 –> 00:49:05,214
bring with you? Let me look behind you and see what you got.

799
00:49:06,714 –> 00:49:10,442
Thats what matters. Its not just about

800
00:49:10,498 –> 00:49:13,894
the justification. Its the sanctification part as well,

801
00:49:14,484 –> 00:49:18,300
the salvation. And then it’s the purification, if you will, of your

802
00:49:18,332 –> 00:49:22,180
mind and your heart and your soul by embracing God’s word

803
00:49:22,212 –> 00:49:25,264
and trying to be christlike. So

804
00:49:25,844 –> 00:49:29,676
I’d say, as a disciple, if you

805
00:49:29,700 –> 00:49:30,904
are going to

806
00:49:33,204 –> 00:49:37,044
print a business card to give out to

807
00:49:37,084 –> 00:49:40,808
people, one of the best things you could put on it under your name

808
00:49:40,956 –> 00:49:43,964
where you’ve got your title, is disciple.

809
00:49:44,584 –> 00:49:48,096
Start thinking of yourself as being primarily

810
00:49:48,200 –> 00:49:51,864
a disciple. And every time when you

811
00:49:51,904 –> 00:49:55,164
look at that, say to yourself, what does that mean?

812
00:49:55,504 –> 00:49:59,120
What does that mean? Yeah, I need to think like Jesus so I can act

813
00:49:59,152 –> 00:50:02,336
like Jesus, but what am I doing? What do I

814
00:50:02,360 –> 00:50:06,080
produce? I make disciples. What am I doing right

815
00:50:06,112 –> 00:50:09,920
now to make disciples? We’ve got to have that in front of us all the

816
00:50:09,952 –> 00:50:13,760
time. The time is short. Nobody knows how much time there

817
00:50:13,792 –> 00:50:17,520
is, but it’s short. We got

818
00:50:17,552 –> 00:50:21,200
to be focused on the fact that particularly if I’m a

819
00:50:21,232 –> 00:50:24,968
parent or in my case, I’m a grandparent now.

820
00:50:25,136 –> 00:50:28,640
It’s like, okay, I’ve got just a short window of

821
00:50:28,672 –> 00:50:32,088
time, and I’ve got to be focused on these lives, building that

822
00:50:32,136 –> 00:50:35,740
relationship, making sure they trust me. I know they only trust me

823
00:50:35,772 –> 00:50:39,460
when I’m consistently obeying God. They hear what I’m

824
00:50:39,492 –> 00:50:42,984
saying and they see what I’m doing. They match. Okay, they can trust me

825
00:50:43,284 –> 00:50:46,596
and they know that I love them and I care about them and I want

826
00:50:46,620 –> 00:50:50,420
the best for them. And I’m willing to put my time aside

827
00:50:50,492 –> 00:50:54,060
for them. And I want to have these conversations with them. And the

828
00:50:54,092 –> 00:50:57,676
conversations we have are different because it’s socratic dialogue.

829
00:50:57,780 –> 00:51:01,566
I’m just asking them questions. I’m observing, and then I’m asking

830
00:51:01,630 –> 00:51:05,286
questions, and I’m bringing it back to God’s word. I mean, that’s what we do

831
00:51:05,310 –> 00:51:09,046
as disciplers. And so, you know, always have a list of

832
00:51:09,070 –> 00:51:12,582
people that you’re discipling, people that you love, that you care about,

833
00:51:12,718 –> 00:51:16,534
not because you’re great. God made them. He cared about it before you

834
00:51:16,574 –> 00:51:20,014
did. He’s loved them longer than you have and deeper than you

835
00:51:20,054 –> 00:51:23,670
do, but he’s called you to be his stand in,

836
00:51:23,782 –> 00:51:27,540
to love them and care about them enough that you’ll bring them into the kingdom,

837
00:51:27,662 –> 00:51:31,128
you’ll help them to become disciples of Jesus, and

838
00:51:31,176 –> 00:51:34,848
then help them to turn around and do the same thing. Print up their

839
00:51:34,896 –> 00:51:38,464
business card form where it says disciple and let them proudly,

840
00:51:38,504 –> 00:51:42,248
and, you know, confidently go out into the world and

841
00:51:42,296 –> 00:51:46,080
represent Christ. Amen. It’s on us. It’s on

842
00:51:46,112 –> 00:51:49,904
you. Dads, I love that you didn’t say, you know, get into

843
00:51:49,944 –> 00:51:53,758
a program on Saturdays at your church or Wednesday nights. And.

844
00:51:53,806 –> 00:51:57,014
And we are church people. We want to be in faithful

845
00:51:57,054 –> 00:52:00,710
fellowship, but truly it starts with our desire to

846
00:52:00,742 –> 00:52:04,486
grow. And, uh, it ironically

847
00:52:04,550 –> 00:52:08,390
boils back down to doctor Grudem’s. Suggestion that

848
00:52:08,422 –> 00:52:12,086
we put the whole bible into practice. You mentioned early in

849
00:52:12,110 –> 00:52:15,934
our interview that we only have to be a few steps ahead of our

850
00:52:15,974 –> 00:52:19,774
kids. And this is one thing I love about the christian walk, is that

851
00:52:19,894 –> 00:52:23,726
God’s word is powerful. I often counsel dads

852
00:52:23,750 –> 00:52:27,366
and. And talk to dads and tell them, look, if you do nothing

853
00:52:27,430 –> 00:52:31,158
else, just open up his word and start reading.

854
00:52:31,286 –> 00:52:34,934
Because truly, for us to become disciples, it is a process

855
00:52:35,014 –> 00:52:38,654
of growth over time that requires us being in

856
00:52:38,694 –> 00:52:42,422
his word and then also sharing that with our kids.

857
00:52:42,558 –> 00:52:45,958
But that’s. That’s so good. So. So I want to ask

858
00:52:46,006 –> 00:52:49,736
you, uh, I want to get back to a

859
00:52:49,760 –> 00:52:53,440
little bit the church, um, because so much of this has

860
00:52:53,472 –> 00:52:56,604
been focused on us. And yet you mentioned earlier

861
00:52:56,904 –> 00:53:00,552
that one of the reasons we’re in this place is that parents have

862
00:53:00,608 –> 00:53:04,400
outsourced the discipleship of their kids. That happens day to day in

863
00:53:04,432 –> 00:53:08,104
school, but it also happens on Wednesday nights and

864
00:53:08,144 –> 00:53:11,776
Sunday mornings. So what do you think the proper

865
00:53:11,880 –> 00:53:15,624
division of labor should look like for discipleship of our own

866
00:53:15,664 –> 00:53:19,368
kids between the home and the church? Well,

867
00:53:19,536 –> 00:53:23,296
the church, the local church, exists to support

868
00:53:23,440 –> 00:53:26,864
parents in raising their children to be spiritual

869
00:53:26,904 –> 00:53:30,632
champions. It’s not the parents job to drop off the kids and

870
00:53:30,648 –> 00:53:34,392
say to the children’s pastor, get it done. I mean, it’s really

871
00:53:34,448 –> 00:53:38,232
the job of the children’s pastor to come alongside

872
00:53:38,328 –> 00:53:41,624
the parents and work together with them as a team,

873
00:53:42,164 –> 00:53:45,916
where the children’s pastor isn’t even supposed to be the leader

874
00:53:45,980 –> 00:53:49,820
of that team. The parents need to be leading that team.

875
00:53:50,012 –> 00:53:53,364
And what the children’s pastor needs to do is to resource the

876
00:53:53,404 –> 00:53:56,944
parents, help them to have what they need. Maybe that’s

877
00:53:57,644 –> 00:54:01,036
more theological education. Maybe it’s

878
00:54:01,180 –> 00:54:04,956
resources for in the home. Maybe it’s events that the

879
00:54:04,980 –> 00:54:08,380
church can put on where the parent and the child interact

880
00:54:08,452 –> 00:54:11,964
together under the support the

881
00:54:12,944 –> 00:54:16,688
perspective of the church. But it’s not the

882
00:54:16,816 –> 00:54:20,336
children’s ministry that’s responsible for that

883
00:54:20,440 –> 00:54:23,816
and praise the Lord that that’s the case because we found that only

884
00:54:23,880 –> 00:54:27,696
12% of children’s pastors across the country have

885
00:54:27,720 –> 00:54:31,440
a biblical worldview. I say some things that

886
00:54:31,472 –> 00:54:35,216
upset a lot of people. One of those things I say is, hey, if you’re

887
00:54:35,240 –> 00:54:38,880
a parent, you better do your homework about where you’re going to take your

888
00:54:38,912 –> 00:54:42,704
child to church, because in seven out of eight cases, they’re

889
00:54:42,744 –> 00:54:46,384
going to be in harm’s way when you take them to church,

890
00:54:46,464 –> 00:54:50,136
theologically speaking. And so you better do

891
00:54:50,160 –> 00:54:53,808
your homework and know that where you’re bringing them is going to

892
00:54:53,856 –> 00:54:57,648
help you to make them into a disciple, not throw up roadblocks

893
00:54:57,696 –> 00:55:01,192
and obstacles in that process. I want to

894
00:55:01,328 –> 00:55:04,776
briefly jump off of that. Then

895
00:55:04,960 –> 00:55:08,780
you say it’s the parents responsibility to know what they’re being taught.

896
00:55:08,952 –> 00:55:12,796
How do you know if you can trust your children’s pastor at your church? How

897
00:55:12,820 –> 00:55:16,172
do you know if you can trust the word of the pastor who’s in the

898
00:55:16,188 –> 00:55:19,988
pulpit? What should we be looking for in the leadership of our churches?

899
00:55:20,036 –> 00:55:23,628
Yeah, you can’t trust their word, just like they can’t trust my word. You

900
00:55:23,636 –> 00:55:27,148
know, you’ve got to look at the fruit. You know, when Jesus

901
00:55:27,196 –> 00:55:30,892
talked about what makes a disciple? There are six things that he gave

902
00:55:30,948 –> 00:55:34,772
us. You know, in John eight, he talked about,

903
00:55:34,868 –> 00:55:38,448
you’ll be my disciple if you obey my teaching. John 13,

904
00:55:38,616 –> 00:55:42,280
he said, you’ll be my disciple if you love other disciples. John

905
00:55:42,352 –> 00:55:45,904
15, here’s a key one. You’ll be my disciple if you produce

906
00:55:46,024 –> 00:55:49,776
a lot of spiritual fruit. Then in Luke 14,

907
00:55:49,880 –> 00:55:53,624
three different areas. He said, you can’t be my disciple unless

908
00:55:53,664 –> 00:55:57,272
you love God above everything else, unless you pick up your cross and

909
00:55:57,288 –> 00:56:00,084
follow me, which meant submit to my authority alone

910
00:56:00,944 –> 00:56:04,780
and unless you surrender everything for my agenda. But

911
00:56:04,972 –> 00:56:08,812
that John 15 eight passage where he talks about, produce a

912
00:56:08,828 –> 00:56:12,260
lot of spiritual fruit. If I’m going to go to a

913
00:56:12,292 –> 00:56:16,060
church, I want to be able to observe a pastor who’s not

914
00:56:16,092 –> 00:56:19,384
just teaching fancy stuff up on a platform.

915
00:56:20,044 –> 00:56:23,476
I want to know that this person is actually serving in the

916
00:56:23,500 –> 00:56:27,124
community. I want to know that he’s got a good marriage and that he’s

917
00:56:27,164 –> 00:56:30,834
raised his children to be spiritual champions. I want to

918
00:56:30,874 –> 00:56:34,354
know that he’s teaching good stuff from the scriptures,

919
00:56:34,474 –> 00:56:37,882
which means I probably need to get a few cds or go online, listen to

920
00:56:37,898 –> 00:56:41,418
some sermons and compare it to scripture. See, is

921
00:56:41,466 –> 00:56:45,178
this God’s truth? Am I getting good stuff or am I getting the

922
00:56:45,226 –> 00:56:49,026
world kind of trickling in and influencing what’s going on?

923
00:56:49,130 –> 00:56:52,410
Because we know that the world is influencing the church more than the church is

924
00:56:52,442 –> 00:56:56,114
influencing the world. So I’ve got to do my homework there.

925
00:56:56,154 –> 00:56:59,966
Same thing with the children’s pastor and so with the

926
00:56:59,990 –> 00:57:03,590
children’s ministry. I not only want to talk to or maybe even

927
00:57:03,662 –> 00:57:07,382
interview the children’s pastor, and if they get offended by that,

928
00:57:07,438 –> 00:57:10,942
great. It’s not the church for me. I want to look at their

929
00:57:10,998 –> 00:57:14,754
curriculum. I want to talk to some of the other

930
00:57:15,094 –> 00:57:18,710
people who are volunteering in there to find out

931
00:57:18,822 –> 00:57:22,566
their sense of what’s going on. I want to know what the schedule is

932
00:57:22,590 –> 00:57:26,274
going to be when my child’s in that room. How much time is being

933
00:57:26,314 –> 00:57:29,914
devoted to studying the Bible, to worshiping

934
00:57:29,954 –> 00:57:33,642
God, as opposed to playing games and all the

935
00:57:33,658 –> 00:57:37,410
other frivolous stuff? That’s critical stuff for me to know

936
00:57:37,442 –> 00:57:41,138
as a parent. And if it’s out of whack, I may

937
00:57:41,226 –> 00:57:44,642
love the senior pastor, but if the

938
00:57:44,698 –> 00:57:48,162
children’s ministry isn’t going to get the job done at wrong

939
00:57:48,218 –> 00:57:51,694
church for me, it’s not about me.

940
00:57:51,874 –> 00:57:55,646
I only bring my child to the church so that they can help me

941
00:57:55,670 –> 00:57:59,206
to raise my child to be a follower of Jesus Christ.

942
00:57:59,350 –> 00:58:02,326
If they’re not going to do that, if they’re going to be an obstruction in

943
00:58:02,350 –> 00:58:06,038
that process, I’ve got to keep looking. Yeah.

944
00:58:06,166 –> 00:58:09,910
Amen. And I want to encourage parents jumping off of that. Don’t

945
00:58:09,942 –> 00:58:13,686
be afraid to have your kids sit with you in church. It

946
00:58:13,750 –> 00:58:17,526
isn’t always the right practice to shuffle them off

947
00:58:17,550 –> 00:58:21,230
to children’s ministry. In fact, I would really be careful

948
00:58:21,382 –> 00:58:24,910
about how and when you do that. Don’t be afraid to have them sit with

949
00:58:24,942 –> 00:58:28,454
you and sit under heavy biblical teaching. It’ll be

950
00:58:28,494 –> 00:58:32,246
okay. They’ll. They’ll survive and they’ll actually learn and grow.

951
00:58:32,430 –> 00:58:36,014
Let me just say to that, too. I know you got. But that’s such a

952
00:58:36,054 –> 00:58:39,542
great point. It’s like if you’re there and there’s a great

953
00:58:39,598 –> 00:58:43,238
sermon and your kids doodling on the program, you know,

954
00:58:43,326 –> 00:58:46,794
afterwards, say, you know, maybe some of that you didn’t understand,

955
00:58:47,114 –> 00:58:50,866
but here’s what he was telling us, and here’s what I

956
00:58:50,890 –> 00:58:54,610
think it means for you. Bring it down to their level afterwards. That’s how

957
00:58:54,642 –> 00:58:58,442
the church can help support you. You get some goods, you share

958
00:58:58,498 –> 00:59:02,290
those goods with your kids. You make it real to them. You hold them

959
00:59:02,322 –> 00:59:05,994
accountable to it, just like I hold the pastor is going to hold you

960
00:59:06,034 –> 00:59:09,706
accountable to what he or she was teaching you. But

961
00:59:09,810 –> 00:59:13,634
that flow has to be there. It can’t just be. Yeah, just sit

962
00:59:13,674 –> 00:59:17,368
here and I hope you pick up a gem or two. No, you’ve. You’ve got

963
00:59:17,376 –> 00:59:20,524
to find the gem and polish it and put it in their ring.

964
00:59:20,864 –> 00:59:24,432
Amen. That time in the car after church

965
00:59:24,608 –> 00:59:28,456
is some of the most important discipleship time. What did

966
00:59:28,480 –> 00:59:32,024
you learn today? What did we hear? Let’s discuss it. It is

967
00:59:32,064 –> 00:59:35,856
so good. Yep. All right, I have one more question before we wrap it

968
00:59:35,880 –> 00:59:39,488
up. You mentioned this steep decline

969
00:59:39,656 –> 00:59:42,928
between the time you were doing research for Charles

970
00:59:42,976 –> 00:59:46,764
Colson until now in biblical worldview.

971
00:59:47,304 –> 00:59:50,952
Do you believe this is a winnable war and is it

972
00:59:51,008 –> 00:59:54,664
worth fighting. Well, number one, we know in the end, God wins.

973
00:59:54,744 –> 00:59:58,520
So I’m not worried about that. Secondly, we

974
00:59:58,552 –> 01:00:02,368
know that we’re living every moment of every day of our lives in

975
01:00:02,376 –> 01:00:06,112
the midst of an incredible spiritual

976
01:00:06,168 –> 01:00:09,744
battle where Satan is trying to destroy every one of

977
01:00:09,784 –> 01:00:13,518
us every day. And thirdly,

978
01:00:13,566 –> 01:00:17,414
we know that when God fights a battle, a war to

979
01:00:17,454 –> 01:00:21,194
transform a culture, he never waits until he has a majority.

980
01:00:21,494 –> 01:00:25,182
In fact, as we look in scripture at different passages, where

981
01:00:25,318 –> 01:00:29,110
we see him working through some of his dedicated servants

982
01:00:29,262 –> 01:00:33,038
to completely change the local culture, to

983
01:00:33,086 –> 01:00:36,406
honor and glorify him. If his

984
01:00:36,510 –> 01:00:40,086
servants had, let’s say, in the case, I think it was, Gideon had like

985
01:00:40,110 –> 01:00:43,566
a, I don’t know, 30,000 people or something. They were up against Midi knights,

986
01:00:43,590 –> 01:00:47,422
135,000. Oh, my gosh. They’re already overwhelmed by a factor

987
01:00:47,438 –> 01:00:50,918
of four to one. Well, God didn’t care. In fact,

988
01:00:51,046 –> 01:00:54,034
he sidelined most of Gideon’s people

989
01:00:54,694 –> 01:00:58,526
and put Gideon in there. I think it was like, with 300 people

990
01:00:58,670 –> 01:01:02,126
up against 135,000, numbers are

991
01:01:02,190 –> 01:01:05,798
irrelevant to God in that sense. So the fact

992
01:01:05,846 –> 01:01:09,366
that only 3% of adults in America today, I

993
01:01:09,390 –> 01:01:12,994
think, meet the Jesus standards for being disciples,

994
01:01:13,334 –> 01:01:17,118
we can turn this country upside down. If that 3%

995
01:01:17,206 –> 01:01:20,774
got busy serving Jesus with all the energy and

996
01:01:20,814 –> 01:01:24,566
passion they could muster, he’ll give us the courage, he’ll give us

997
01:01:24,590 –> 01:01:28,318
the resources, he’ll give us the tools. It’s in

998
01:01:28,366 –> 01:01:31,910
his power. We’re doing it anyway. It’s not our authority, it’s his.

999
01:01:32,062 –> 01:01:35,822
He’s called us to this. He’s not called us to fail. Yeah, we can

1000
01:01:35,838 –> 01:01:39,494
do this. Amen. I love it. I love that you bring in

1001
01:01:39,534 –> 01:01:42,926
Gideon, because Gideon is one of my favorite bible

1002
01:01:42,990 –> 01:01:46,754
characters. In that God included a man

1003
01:01:47,134 –> 01:01:50,790
as an example of a leader who God worked through,

1004
01:01:50,982 –> 01:01:54,830
who had such great faith, quote unquote, that he had to put

1005
01:01:54,862 –> 01:01:58,674
God to the test a few times before he even stepped forward.

1006
01:01:58,974 –> 01:02:02,614
And I look at that, and it’s easy to look at Gideon and go,

1007
01:02:02,654 –> 01:02:06,432
man, what a dummy. Why’d you do that? But we have to understand,

1008
01:02:06,608 –> 01:02:10,192
we’re in the same place so often. I never feel

1009
01:02:10,248 –> 01:02:14,096
capable or confident to do what I’m called to do. And I

1010
01:02:14,120 –> 01:02:17,760
have put God to the test several times. And so I’m so

1011
01:02:17,832 –> 01:02:21,504
thankful for that witness in the bible of a man who God

1012
01:02:21,544 –> 01:02:25,328
could use in spite of his meager faith. So,

1013
01:02:25,416 –> 01:02:28,364
Dr. Barna, thank you so much for your time today.

1014
01:02:28,864 –> 01:02:32,692
Again, everybody, please go out and get

1015
01:02:32,788 –> 01:02:35,876
Raising Spiritual Champions. This book is so

1016
01:02:35,940 –> 01:02:39,388
powerful that my wife won’t let me read it yet

1017
01:02:39,516 –> 01:02:43,196
until she’s done with it. Go get a copy. It’s really good.

1018
01:02:43,300 –> 01:02:46,304
Dr. Barna, how can our listeners connect with you?

1019
01:02:47,084 –> 01:02:50,860
There are different places they could go. You know, here at the cultural research center

1020
01:02:50,892 –> 01:02:54,740
at Arizona Christian University, we’ve got a website so they could go to

1021
01:02:54,772 –> 01:02:58,580
culturalresearchcenter.com. I’ve got a website. It’s got

1022
01:02:58,612 –> 01:03:02,364
the books, all the reports. The reports are all free. They can get

1023
01:03:02,404 –> 01:03:06,052
those there. GeorgeBarna.com so there are

1024
01:03:06,068 –> 01:03:09,660
various ways of connecting. So I look forward to hopefully

1025
01:03:09,692 –> 01:03:13,500
helping people. Yeah, thank you so much. And I want to ask you to head

1026
01:03:13,532 –> 01:03:17,300
over to our website, thinkingdad.net dot. You can find

1027
01:03:17,332 –> 01:03:20,744
the show notes there for everything Dr. Barna talked about today.

1028
01:03:21,124 –> 01:03:24,846
Also, you’ll find a link to our store where you can pick up your

1029
01:03:24,870 –> 01:03:28,678
own “Think Biblically” t-shirt. And while you’re there, sign

1030
01:03:28,726 –> 01:03:32,494
up for our newsletter. Because this is a seasonal show, that’s

1031
01:03:32,534 –> 01:03:36,190
really the best way to know what’s coming. If you feel led, you can

1032
01:03:36,222 –> 01:03:39,558
also make a donation to support the Thinking Dad in this

1033
01:03:39,606 –> 01:03:42,182
ministry. Check it out. Thinkingdad.net.

1034
01:03:42,238 –> 01:03:45,998
I hope you’ve been encouraged today. Stick around

1035
01:03:46,046 –> 01:03:49,390
to the end to hear a clip of what’s coming up next time on the

1036
01:03:49,422 –> 01:03:52,434
Thinking Dad and we’ll see you back here real soon.

1037
01:03:56,374 –> 01:03:59,822
We are made, not some of us, not the

1038
01:03:59,918 –> 01:04:03,246
highest earners, not the fanciest jobs.

1039
01:04:03,430 –> 01:04:07,278
All people were made in the image and likeness

1040
01:04:07,326 –> 01:04:11,022
of God. Every human being is

1041
01:04:11,118 –> 01:04:14,526
made with not only the blessing of the

1042
01:04:14,550 –> 01:04:18,006
uniquely human things, that we have an eternal

1043
01:04:18,070 –> 01:04:21,914
destiny, that we have a reason,

1044
01:04:22,414 –> 01:04:26,094
that we have attributes that the rest of the created

1045
01:04:26,134 –> 01:04:29,966
order does not have. And what I try to show from the book

1046
01:04:29,990 –> 01:04:33,694
of Genesis is that what this means is that God

1047
01:04:33,734 –> 01:04:37,358
made us uniquely as workers, as

1048
01:04:37,406 –> 01:04:41,190
producers, as co creators. With him, he

1049
01:04:41,222 –> 01:04:44,946
did not ask the plants or the animals or the mountains or the

1050
01:04:44,970 –> 01:04:48,658
waves to make things out of his

1051
01:04:48,706 –> 01:04:52,362
creation. He only asked us to do that. He only

1052
01:04:52,418 –> 01:04:56,234
gave us with the dignity that comes with being an

1053
01:04:56,274 –> 01:05:00,114
image bearer of him. I think it’s a profound theological

1054
01:05:00,194 –> 01:05:03,778
truth and I think it’s a beautiful part of

1055
01:05:03,826 –> 01:05:07,482
our understanding of anthropology, the human

1056
01:05:07,618 –> 01:05:11,290
person as being uniquely made in the image of

1057
01:05:11,322 –> 01:05:14,914
God. I want people to kind of stop the language of

1058
01:05:14,954 –> 01:05:18,674
saying that what we do and who we are are

1059
01:05:18,714 –> 01:05:22,482
two totally different things, because they are not.

1060
01:05:22,618 –> 01:05:26,154
There is nobody that sees a person

1061
01:05:26,234 –> 01:05:29,930
out working hard, serving others, putting great

1062
01:05:30,002 –> 01:05:33,822
effort into things, getting great results, and having

1063
01:05:33,878 –> 01:05:37,598
character in doing it. There’s no one who looks at that and then

1064
01:05:37,646 –> 01:05:41,374
looks at someone laying on the couch, sleeping all day, not

1065
01:05:41,414 –> 01:05:45,246
pulling their weight, living off of the efforts of others, and thinks, oh,

1066
01:05:45,270 –> 01:05:48,862
wow, those two are the same thing. Everybody

1067
01:05:48,918 –> 01:05:51,934
knows that there is a difference and that the difference is

1068
01:05:51,974 –> 01:05:54,494
identifiable in the activity.