TD 6: Dr. George Barna – Raising Spiritual Champions: Restoring Biblical Foundations in Families and Churches

“Churches often measure the wrong things: attendance, money, programs, staff, and square footage. Jesus didn’t die for any of those.” – Dr. George Barna

Watch this full interview on our YouTube Channel

Dr. George Barna joins Thinking Dad host, Garritt Hampton, to delve into raising children with a biblical worldview. Dr. Barna, renowned researcher and author of “Raising Spiritual Champions,” discusses the essential cornerstones of a biblical worldview, the role of parents and churches, and urgent issues impacting spiritual development in today’s society.

📖 **Key Takeaways**:

– The role of intentional discipleship in spiritual growth.

– How parents can proactively raise their children as disciples of Jesus.

– The seven cornerstones of a biblical worldview.

– Evaluating the impact of media and culture on children’s spiritual growth.

– Building one-on-one discipleship relationships for spiritual maturity.

– The alarming decline in adults with a biblical worldview.

– Practical steps for fostering a strong faith foundation at home.

👨‍👩‍👧‍👦 Equip yourself with the knowledge to raise your children as spiritual champions. Don’t forget to subscribe and hit the notification bell to stay updated on more enriching episodes!

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Recommended Resources:

GeorgeBarna.com

CulturalResearchCenter.com 

Raising Spiritual Champions: Nurturing Your Child’s Heart, Mind and Soul, by Dr. George Barna

More books from Dr. George Barna

American Worldview Inventory 2024: A National Survey of Biblical and Competing Worldviews

More from Dr. Barna on the Schoolhouse Rocked Podcast

 

Dr. Barna on Facebook

Dr. Barna on Instagram

Dr. Barna on X/Twitter

Dr. Barna on LinkedIn

🍿🍿🍿 Stream Schoolhouse Rocked: The Homeschool Revolution for FREE today!

 

Discussion Questions:

1. **Worldview Development**: Dr. George Barna states that a person’s worldview is fully developed before the age of 13. How can parents be more intentional about shaping a biblical worldview in young children?

2. **Church Metrics**: According to Dr. Barna, churches often measure their effectiveness through metrics like attendance, money, and programs. How can churches shift their focus toward more effective discipleship and spiritual growth?

3. **One-on-One Discipleship**: Dr. Barna emphasizes the importance of one-on-one discipleship relationships. How can church leaders and members create an environment that fosters these types of meaningful relationships?

4. **Parental Responsibility**: What strategies can parents implement to ensure they are the primary spiritual educators for their children, rather than relying solely on the church?

5. **Overcoming Syncretism**: Dr. Barna notes that syncretism, or creating one’s own customized worldview, is prevalent in America. How can parents and churches address and counteract this trend?

6. **Influence of Media**: Dr. Barna highlights the significant cultural influence of media on children’s spiritual development. How can parents and mentors create a balanced approach to media consumption that aligns with biblical values?

7. **Seven Cornerstones**: What are practical ways for families to integrate the seven cornerstones of a biblical worldview into their daily lives?

8. **Role of the Church**: What steps can churches take to better support families in their mission to raise spiritually mature children?

9. **Impact of Current Crisis**: Dr. Barna mentions that the decline of a biblical worldview is contributing to cultural decline. How can individuals and communities combat this decline and promote biblical principles in today’s society?

 

The Thinking Dad podcast is a member of the Biblical Family Network. Our mission is to support and encourage the family by providing the very best podcasts on family, discipleship, marriage, parenting, worldview, culture, and education, all from a Biblical perspective. Visit the website for more great shows.

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Americans are all over the map in terms of what they think success is.

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You know, biggest house in the neighborhood, more money than I could ever spend,

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you know, the trophy spouse, the big title,

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the fancy reputation, the Porshe, the

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drive, you know, whatever it may be. And God says, what “are you, stupid?”

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No! You know, success is

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consistent obedience to him. Laughing in the face of imposter

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syndrome. And coming to you from the epicenter of manly overconfidence

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in northeastern Oklahoma. I’m your host, Garritt

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Hampton, and you are listening to the Thinking Dad. I’m

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so glad you’ve joined me today. I have a really great show lined up for

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you. Doctor George Barna is joining me today. Dr.

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Barna is the director of research at Arizona Christian University’s

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Cultural Research Center, and his work has

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been critical to hundreds of ministries, thousands

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of churches, numerous political campaigns, including

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four presidential campaigns. This guy has

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done some seriously important work. And

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I hold in my hand today Raising Spiritual Champions,

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which is his 60th book that he’s either

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authored or co authored, and it is a barn burner.

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We’re going to be talking about that today. I can’t wait to get into

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this. But first I have to tell you about our sponsor,

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today, CTCMath.com. tell them thank

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you for supporting the Thinking Dad podcast. All right, let’s get into

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our conversation with Dr. Barna. Well, Dr. Barna, it’s a pleasure

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to talk with you today. For my listeners who may not know you,

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would you take a minute to tell us about your family and yourself?

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Sure. I’m basically a

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researcher, writer, speaker kind of guy.

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Work here at Arizona Christian University. Years ago, I

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had started something called the Barna Group. Originally it was the Barna

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Research Group. My wife and I put that together.

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We worked in it for about 25

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years before I sold it back in 2009.

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And since then I’ve been doing a variety of research activities.

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And now I’m here at the university. So I go back and forth

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between Arizona and California my wife, Nancy,

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has. Well, let’s see, we’ve been married since

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1978, so 45 years or

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so. Went out for about seven years before that. So she’s

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been putting up with me for more than half a century. She’s just put more

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jewels in that crown every day, I’ll tell you. And we have

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three daughters, one of whom is married and has three

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grandchildren. All three of them live near us in

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California. So that’s kind of the thumbnail. I

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love it. And I love that you get to be near your

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grandkids. Even though you work out of state, you go

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back and forth. Yeah. And I try to spend as much time with them as

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possible. Right now, they’re five, seven, and nine years old. So

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this is, for me, their prime discipleship years.

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And I want to be able to spend as much time with them as I

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can, you know, talking with them about the things that

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matter, just being there for them as a

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mentor, hopefully. But, yeah, we have a great

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relationship, and we all love baseball, so how could it go? I love

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it. Yeah. Very cool. Well, I want to

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talk about Worldview today, and that’s really, uh, your

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wheelhouse. But before I get into it, I want to set the stage

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a little bit, because we look at acts chapter

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17, and Paul is in Greece addressing the

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men of Athens, and he says this. He says, I

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perceive that in every way you are very religious,

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for I passed along and observed the objects of your worship.

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I also found an altar with this inscription, to the

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unknown God. What therefore you worship is

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unknown. This I proclaim to you. And he goes

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on to preach the gospel to them. But first, he has

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to start with the very beginning, that foundation of who

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God is, what he’s done from creation,

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and then his plan of redemption. Because even though these people were

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very religious, they didn’t have the foundation that the Jews

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had of the law and the prophets and the story of

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creation and this knowledge of who God was. And I

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feel like we’re at a place in american culture right now

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where we’re kind of in the same place. We’re very religious, but

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we don’t know who God is. We don’t necessarily believe that

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he is the creator. And last week, I got an

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email from your PR company, who we love,

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and they sent us a copy of the

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2024 American Worldview

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Inventory. Can you tell us a little bit about the inventory and what you

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guys do and what you found this year?

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Yeah. Garritt, this is the fifth year that we’ve been doing that

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annual survey. At the beginning of every calendar year,

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we do a big national survey with a representative sample

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of adults from across America. And what

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we’re consistently trying to do is understand the worldview

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of Americans. What are its strengths? What are its weaknesses?

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What kind of worldview do people possess? How

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deeply are they wedded to that particular worldview?

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How many people have a biblical worldview? What

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direction is that moving in? Is it growing, shrinking? All those

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kinds of things. We look at different segments of the population

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in relation to their worldview. So every year then,

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we put out a series of small reports

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drawn from that research. And

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probably what the PR firm sent you was one or two of those reports that

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have come out so far this year. Looking at what

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we’ve discovered in 2024, one of the key

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elements of which is that once again, we

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have a decrease in the

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proportion of adults in America who possess a biblical

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worldview were down to just 4%. Now,

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when I started measuring this back in the early nineties, I was working with Chuck

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Colson and others on trying to assess

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worldview. Back then, we were at about 12%

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30 some years ago. And the reason that

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Chuck wrote his landmark book, how now shall we

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live, came out of that research because he was so

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alarmed that it was 12%. Well, ever since

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that time, we keep declining just a little

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bit, a little bit at a time, but we’ve lost

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67% of what we had back then.

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This is a real danger point for America if

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we want to talk about the crisis in

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America. I know the border is a big deal. I know crime

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is a big deal. I know the economy is a big deal. But we’ve

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got all of those issues and challenges

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because of the loss of biblical worldview in America.

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Amen. Everybody’s got a worldview. You need one to get through the

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day. It’s the filter that helps you make every decision you make. And if you

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don’t like what’s going on in the culture, it’s because we’re making bad

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decisions. And we’re making bad decisions because

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our worldview is no longer God’s way of

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seeing things, the biblical worldview. So worldview,

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I would say, really is the crisis of our

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time. Yeah. What I found, I think most

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terrifying wasn’t just that people in

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America have no biblical worldview, but you actually

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find that many people in the church don’t have a biblical, biblical

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worldview. And even worse, it seems that not

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only do we not have a biblical worldview, but we’re taking

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distinctly anti christian worldviews and

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rolling them into this idea of Christianity

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and you find that the dominant worldview now is something called

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syncretism. Would you explain syncretism to us?

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Yeah. Syncretism is very complex, but it’s

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easy to understand. All it is is people being

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exposed to many different worldviews. Every day

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when we watch television, we listen to music, we listen

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to radio, on the news or on tv, we watch a

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movie. Every one of those is bombarding us with

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messages. And underlying what they’re communicating

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is a worldview. So we’re bombarded with

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different worldview messages, competing worldview

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messages every day. Syncretism is simply

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where we’re exposed to all of that, and we pick and choose the

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different elements that we like, the ones that feel most

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comfortable, make us feel most secure, seem most popular,

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maybe feel most comforting to us,

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seem most intellectually reasonable. Whatever the reason is, and there

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are all kinds of reasons, we pick and choose all these different things,

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and we bolt them together into a customized

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worldview that doesn’t represent

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any defined worldview, such

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as postmodernism or Marxism or

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biblical theism, which is the biblical worldview, or

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eastern mysticism. There are dozens of

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well defined worldviews, and what Americans tend to

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do is say, I’m not picking any one of those lock,

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stock, and barrel. I’m going to develop my own

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that represents who I am, how I think, how I

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feel, how I see myself, how I want to live. And

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then we run with that worldview. And because it

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doesn’t reflect a well defined worldview,

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it’s simply a mishmash of all these different ideas. That’s what’s

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known as syncretism. Hmm. It’s like there isn’t a

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standard, right, an objective truth that we can look to

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to establish one true worldview. It’s crazy,

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right? Well, I want to talk about that. I have

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my wife’s favorite book in my hand, and I’m sure

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this would be one of my favorite books, except I can’t get it from

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my wife. As I prepared for this interview, I had to steal it from

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her nightstand, take out her bookmark and get into it,

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and I marked it up myself. But this book is

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powerful people raising spiritual champions.

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And Yvette, got to talk to you on the schoolhouse rocked

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podcast about this book. And what I love is

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this isn’t just a book for adult christians. This is a

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book for adult christians who intend to turn

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over their values and beliefs to their children. And

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so I want to start actually with your

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motivation to write the book, because you. You write

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something in there that’s very important. You say that you were motivated

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by the idea of starting well and finishing well. Talk about

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that for me. I mean, look at me. I’m an old man, okay? I mean,

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how much time could I possibly have left? So, you know,

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about four or five years ago, I looked in the mirror one day. I don’t

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usually look in the mirror, but I looked in the mirror and I thought, whoa,

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what happened? Who is that old man? And it got me to

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thinking about the fact that, you know what? I’ve got to

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transition my thinking now to I’m

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in my final era of ministry.

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And so I know I’m going to be standing before the Lord, and

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he’s going to ask me, what’d you do? Why’d you do it? How’d you do

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it? And I want to hear him say, well done, good and faithful

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servant. So to do that, I want to finish

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well. I want to finish strong. I want to make

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sure that I get done everything that I think he put me on the planet

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to do for his kingdom. And so I sat

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back and thought about, what would that be? I

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mean, I’ve kind of been doing what I think he’s called me to do for

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years, but how do I finish well? So I thought, all

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right, wait a minute, I’m a researcher. So I went back

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and I took my 200 most recent national research

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projects, and I got out of pad and I started

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making notes. What did I learn from each one of these studies? And

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I’m making notes, making notes, and I wound up with a lot of

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pages. And one of my strengths, I think, is

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I’m able to take a lot of data and synthesize it down to what

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matters. And so I did that with this pad that I just

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filled up with bullet points, all these things that we glean

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from a wide variety of research projects.

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And when I looked at it, it came down to

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one basic thing, which was most, if

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not all of these problems would dissipate if we

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had a biblical worldview as a nation, as a

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church, as families, as individuals.

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And we don’t have that. That’s why we’re in the mess we’re in. So I

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thought, okay, I’ve got to write about worldview.

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And knowing that I have no idea when the

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Lord’s going to pull the plug on me, it’s like, okay, let me start with

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what might be the most important one first.

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And going back to some of the research I’ve been doing for the last 20

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years in particular, that’s research about worldview and about

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children and we know that a person’s worldview is fully developed

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before they reach the age of 13. So I thought, I’ve got to

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write a book about what are we doing with our children to

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help them have a biblical worldview. Because if we don’t do

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it before they reach the age of 13. I’ve done a lot of research

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that shows it’s not going to happen. With some people, it

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will. Everything I say, you have to understand, I’m a

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sociologist, so I work with averages as a

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researcher. That’s what we do. We say, well, what’s the most common

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point of view that people have? What’s the most common belief, the most common statement

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they’ll make? That’s the average. And so

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looking at that, I know that we’ve got to work with

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children. So that’s what this book was developed for, was

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understanding where children at in America today,

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particularly in the spiritual space, are they disciples of

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Jesus? Do they have a biblical worldview

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and talking to people who can influence

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that outcome. So it’s really to parents, it’s to grandparents,

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it’s to children’s pastors, it’s to

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coaches and tutors and mentors of children,

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teachers. These are the people who have influence on our

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kids. And so it’s a book to them, hopefully to wake them up

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and shake them up and say, look, we’re failing. We’re

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failing miserably. And so whatever you’re doing,

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stop doing it. Let’s rethink this, and here’s

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some data that may help you to get a better grip on what

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could you do to help raise the children in

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America today, in your family, in your school,

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on your team that you coach? Whatever it is

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that you do to influence kids, we need to influence them to

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be more like Jesus. Having a biblical worldview simply

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means that you have the ability and you have the goods

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to think like Jesus. And that only matters

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because you do what you believe. And so if you can think

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like Jesus, then you can live like Jesus. And

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that’s what makes you a disciple of Jesus. The fact that

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you are intentionally trying to live like him. And so

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having that worldview enables you to think like him. So you can live

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like him. Yeah, I. Man, I love that. And

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I, I have to tell you, I appreciate that you

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even took the time to do this, and I can tell you it’s having a

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huge impact. I was at lunch last Sunday and

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sitting next to a good friend, and he said, man, have you read this book

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by Dr. Barna, raising spiritual champions? And I told him, yeah,

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I haven’t had the chance because Yvette stolen it from us. But I’m

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going to get to it and I get to talk to him. But this is

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our heart, to turn over our worldview to our, to our kids

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and to see them walk faithfully with Christ. And as you

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speak, I’m struck by something. Even basic

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salvation has to be based on

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a basic building block of biblical worldview. Because we don’t walk now

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with Christ. Right. We have to base what we believe

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about salvation on what is said in the Bible. And even

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though we won’t have a fully mature worldview as

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new christians, even our basic salvation is based on

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that. So I want to ask you, in the book, you define

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what a biblical worldview is and you talk about seven

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cornerstones. Can you walk us through those and just lay the

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foundation of what is a biblical worldview?

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Sure. A biblical

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worldview. I’ve got a friend,

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Doctor Wayne Grudem, who teaches over at Phoenix seminary. Brilliant

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theologian. He’s written some of the textbooks everybody reads in

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seminaries. Great guy, great man. And

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we were talking about Worldview together one day and

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he looked at me and said, well, you know, George, really,

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to have a biblical worldview, you’d have to know and

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do everything on every page of the Bible. It’s like,

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it’s like, Wayne, don’t do this to me. But I mean, that’s

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true. And honestly, none of

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us are probably capable of that.

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So we’ve got to do the best that we can at

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knowing the key elements that the Bible teaches. I mean, if we

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just start with the, the central core principles

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and get to a place where we really own those as part

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of who we are, it’s not just intellectual ascent,

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but it’s something where we embody

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those truth principles that God’s given to us. We

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believe them, we live them, we talk about them, we

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hold ourselves accountable to them. Really, that’s where a

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biblical worldview leads us. And you get there

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by embracing more and more scriptural truth

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each day, reading God’s word and

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he’ll open up a new insight to us and we’ve got to own that.

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But where do you start? That’s the most common question

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that I get from the people where I speak and

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I teach about these things, or I teach about that book and say, you

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got to do this with your children. But you’ve got an issue.

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Most parents in America, most born again christian parents

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in America do not have a biblical worldview. It’s

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down in the single digits 8% of them. And so

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what about the other 92%? Well, most of them aren’t even bothering to go to

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church. They don’t read the Bible. They’ll never hear me. They’ll never hear the book.

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But those who do come, what I tell them is, you know what? You got

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to be honest about this. And if you’re not there, you got to start

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someplace. So let me suggest to you the seven

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cornerstones of a biblical worldview. These are

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not a complete biblical worldview, but they give you a

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great foundation on which to build a more

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complete and mature biblical worldview. What are they? Very

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simple stuff. This is what we used to consider Sunday

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school 101. But, of course, most churches in America no longer

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have Sunday school. You know, we’re trying to jam everything through small

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groups. Small groups are inadequate for trying to build

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disciples. They’re good at building community, but not bringing people

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deeper in spirituality. So what do you do? You’re going to have to get to

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know these things. And, parents, if you don’t know these things, it’s

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okay. Your children don’t, either. And you only got to be about 10 seconds ahead

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of your kids because they don’t know. So, you know, if you can get

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this and then start talking with them about these things, start

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living this out so they can see it, because how you

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model being a disciple of Jesus is

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probably the most important thing you’ll do. But anyway,

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what are they? Number one, believing that God exists. The God

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who created the universe is all powerful, all knowing.

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He’s all loving. He’s just. He’s holy.

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He cares about you. He wants a relationship with

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you. Number one, believe that. That God

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exists. And believing that begins to change everything in

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your life. Because when you believe that he exists and you

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begin to unpack his character, know who he

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is, you come to understand, you know what? Life isn’t about

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you. It’s not about me. It’s all about him. He created

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us for his purposes. So God exists.

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The God of scripture exists. Get to know him, read about

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him, study about him, enjoy him. Secondly,

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understand that you, too, exist. But

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part of your existence is that you’re born into

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sin. Right from day one, you’re a sinner. I mean, the

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Bible tells us that we lean toward

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evil. There’s nothing good in us

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because Adam’s sin wrecked us. And

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so that’s part of. Part of our identity is

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we are sinners in need of somebody

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to rescue us from the consequences of

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our sinful nature. Cornerstone number

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three is that God knows this. He knows everything.

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Remember, he’s omnipotent and he loves us,

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but because he’s holy, he’s perfect, he’s sinless.

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We’ve got a problem. We’re distanced from him by our sin.

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And so he sent Jesus to earth to save us from the

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consequences of our own sinfulness. And

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so what we can do is acknowledge that we are sinners.

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Don’t fight it. Don’t deny it, don’t reject it.

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Own it. That’s who we are. But don’t like

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it, reject it in the sense that I don’t

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want to be a sinner. I want to be loved by God. I want to

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love God. I want to be close and intimate with him. And so

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if I confess to Jesus that I am a sinner,

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I don’t want to be a sinner any longer, please rescue me

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from the consequences of who I am at

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base nature and then promise to

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repent, which basically means that I’m going to do

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everything in my power and I’m going to ask Jesus to give me his holy

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spirit so that I’ve got his power to resist

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sin, to run from sin, to reject temptation.

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Jesus will help us do that, but we’ve got to make that

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commitment acknowledging that we’re sinners, saying, yep, I don’t want to live that way

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anymore. Save me, Jesus. Give me your holy spirit to fight.

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Number four, cornerstone, is

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recognizing that absolute moral truth exists.

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You don’t get to determine what truth is. I don’t get to

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determine what truth is. None of us do, because

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God determines what truth is. And

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when he says it, it’s an absolute. There’s

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no debating it, there’s no questioning it. It

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is because the perfect one who’s

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omnipotent knows everything. He says it is

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truth, end of story, period. And so

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cornerstone number five is realizing

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that, well, it’s one thing for it to exist,

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but how would I know what absolute moral truth is? Most

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Americans say, well, I know because I rely on my

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feelings. Thank you for playing wrong answer. The right

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answer is God tells

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us what absolute moral truth is by

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giving us the Bible. That’s what the Bible is. It’s

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God who is truth. He’s the

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embodiment of truth. Everything about him is

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true. He loves us enough that he said, these

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yahoos that I created, they’re never going to figure it out if I don’t give

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him a cheat sheet. He gave us the Bible, and

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his word decodes truth for us.

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He put that in there and explains to us

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what truth is. Now cornerstone

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number six relates to that in that it tells us

423
00:25:54,890 –> 00:25:58,426
what our purpose is. And we may have all

424
00:25:58,530 –> 00:26:01,626
kinds of ideas about why we’re on the face of the earth,

425
00:26:01,810 –> 00:26:05,618
but he tells us, look, you’re there for

426
00:26:05,666 –> 00:26:09,082
my purposes. I created you,

427
00:26:09,258 –> 00:26:12,354
I get to determine why you live.

428
00:26:12,894 –> 00:26:16,630
And he tells us that the reason that we live is to know and

429
00:26:16,662 –> 00:26:20,350
to love and to serve him with all of our heart and

430
00:26:20,382 –> 00:26:24,038
soul and mind and strength. Amen. And Jesus

431
00:26:24,086 –> 00:26:27,354
called that the most important commandment of all.

432
00:26:27,654 –> 00:26:31,014
And so that’s what we need to dedicate ourselves

433
00:26:31,094 –> 00:26:34,934
to. And as we’re thinking about the choices we make every moment of every

434
00:26:34,974 –> 00:26:38,594
day, we’ve got to go back to, does this serve my purpose

435
00:26:38,734 –> 00:26:42,174
of knowing, loving and serving God with all my heart, mind, strength and soul?

436
00:26:42,554 –> 00:26:46,370
And then the 7th cornerstone adds onto that and

437
00:26:46,402 –> 00:26:50,170
says, as I’m pursuing my purpose, how will I

438
00:26:50,202 –> 00:26:53,762
know when I’m actually achieving it, when I’m doing

439
00:26:53,818 –> 00:26:57,514
well at it? What is success? And again,

440
00:26:57,594 –> 00:27:00,762
Americans are all over the map in terms of what they think success

441
00:27:00,858 –> 00:27:04,642
is. Biggest house in the neighborhood, more money than I could ever

442
00:27:04,698 –> 00:27:08,288
spend, the trophy spouse, the big

443
00:27:08,336 –> 00:27:12,000
title, the fancy reputation, the

444
00:27:12,032 –> 00:27:15,872
portion, the drive, whatever it may be. And God said, what are

445
00:27:15,888 –> 00:27:19,524
you stupid? No, success

446
00:27:20,064 –> 00:27:23,856
is consistent obedience to him. And the

447
00:27:23,880 –> 00:27:27,456
Bible teaches us that. And we know that that’s absolute truth

448
00:27:27,560 –> 00:27:31,360
and it relates to our purpose in life. And he

449
00:27:31,392 –> 00:27:35,128
gave that to us so that we would recognize that he who lives

450
00:27:35,176 –> 00:27:38,824
and has all power and command of everything,

451
00:27:39,164 –> 00:27:42,916
that’s what he’s given to us as our purpose and how to know

452
00:27:42,940 –> 00:27:45,784
if we’re doing it. So if you can

453
00:27:46,644 –> 00:27:49,804
look into and grasp those seven

454
00:27:49,884 –> 00:27:53,564
cornerstones and own them as your

455
00:27:53,644 –> 00:27:57,268
personal chief identity, that

456
00:27:57,316 –> 00:28:01,156
helps you to become a disciple, that’s really your identity. You’re on earth to

457
00:28:01,180 –> 00:28:04,312
follow Jesus and those of us who commit

458
00:28:04,368 –> 00:28:08,184
ourselves with all the strength and wisdom and

459
00:28:08,224 –> 00:28:11,744
resources that we can muster to follow him.

460
00:28:11,904 –> 00:28:15,728
Yeah, that makes us disciples. Jesus.

461
00:28:15,776 –> 00:28:19,576
In the book, I talk about the six ways Jesus defines what a disciple is.

462
00:28:19,680 –> 00:28:22,832
You go back and study those, and that’s a great way of holding yourself

463
00:28:22,888 –> 00:28:26,528
accountable. But it starts by owning these seven

464
00:28:26,576 –> 00:28:30,218
cornerstones and then building on that as

465
00:28:30,266 –> 00:28:33,866
you live every day. Read the Bible, listen to what the spirit is

466
00:28:33,890 –> 00:28:37,234
telling you in terms of how to interpret that and how to apply

467
00:28:37,314 –> 00:28:40,682
that in your life. That’s the way to live.

468
00:28:40,858 –> 00:28:44,346
Amen. I love that within those is just a

469
00:28:44,410 –> 00:28:47,818
simple encapsulation of the gospel.

470
00:28:47,986 –> 00:28:51,682
Repentance, faith and walking with Christ. You

471
00:28:51,698 –> 00:28:55,410
know, we have in our front room a copy of Doctor Wayne

472
00:28:55,442 –> 00:28:59,290
Grudem’s a systematic theology book that’s two

473
00:28:59,322 –> 00:29:03,082
and a half inches thick. And I love his answer

474
00:29:03,258 –> 00:29:06,858
in that. Truly, to have a fully formed biblical

475
00:29:06,906 –> 00:29:10,294
worldview, you have to know, follow, obey

476
00:29:10,794 –> 00:29:14,610
every page of the Bible. But this is God’s

477
00:29:14,642 –> 00:29:17,974
grace to christians is that salvation

478
00:29:18,394 –> 00:29:22,002
does not require a PhD in systematic

479
00:29:22,058 –> 00:29:25,766
theology. Salvation is simple, and he offers it to

480
00:29:25,790 –> 00:29:29,566
all through his son. And it requires a simple act

481
00:29:29,590 –> 00:29:33,230
of repentance and faith. But as christians, we get

482
00:29:33,262 –> 00:29:36,878
to walk and grow and read and learn and

483
00:29:36,926 –> 00:29:40,678
then transmit our faith to our kids, which I think is the

484
00:29:40,726 –> 00:29:44,414
great prize for christians to, you know, live

485
00:29:44,454 –> 00:29:48,222
out the great commission and the great commandment even in our homes,

486
00:29:48,318 –> 00:29:51,990
and then let that go out from there. I want to ask

487
00:29:52,022 –> 00:29:55,662
you, you did mention something in there that I thought was interesting.

488
00:29:55,718 –> 00:29:58,710
You said small groups are inadequate for building

489
00:29:58,782 –> 00:30:02,590
disciples. And I want to touch

490
00:30:02,622 –> 00:30:06,406
on that because I need to ask you, what then is the role of

491
00:30:06,430 –> 00:30:10,086
the church and how would you structure discipleship in the

492
00:30:10,110 –> 00:30:13,934
church? Let me answer it this

493
00:30:13,974 –> 00:30:17,594
way. The book that I’m writing, one of the three

494
00:30:17,634 –> 00:30:21,418
books I’m working on now, is about how do you disciple

495
00:30:21,466 –> 00:30:25,162
adults? It’s incredibly difficult because very

496
00:30:25,258 –> 00:30:29,066
few adults have a biblical worldview. And if

497
00:30:29,090 –> 00:30:32,690
you don’t have a biblical worldview, it’s virtually

498
00:30:32,802 –> 00:30:36,314
impossible. At least based on my research looking at the six

499
00:30:36,354 –> 00:30:40,186
factors Jesus gave us about, how do you describe or define a

500
00:30:40,210 –> 00:30:43,962
disciple? Virtually impossible without a biblical worldview. Because if you’re

501
00:30:43,978 –> 00:30:47,826
not thinking like Jesus, you’re not going to act like him. So you

502
00:30:47,850 –> 00:30:51,130
got to go there. So as I’ve been looking at

503
00:30:51,162 –> 00:30:54,410
discipleship and what actually works in the

504
00:30:54,442 –> 00:30:58,234
process, the one thing that small

505
00:30:58,314 –> 00:31:01,730
groups do that’s very helpful toward building

506
00:31:01,802 –> 00:31:04,610
disciples is it facilitates

507
00:31:04,682 –> 00:31:07,986
relationships, and discipleship is all about

508
00:31:08,050 –> 00:31:11,882
relationship. But what I’ve discovered is that

509
00:31:12,058 –> 00:31:15,834
small groups, that’s about where they end in terms of their

510
00:31:15,874 –> 00:31:19,242
value for building disciples. Typically, I mean, obviously,

511
00:31:19,298 –> 00:31:23,074
exceptions all the time, but typically they’re not very

512
00:31:23,114 –> 00:31:26,666
helpful. Why? Because it’s a group of people sitting around sharing their

513
00:31:26,690 –> 00:31:30,250
ignorance. What I found is that disciples

514
00:31:30,322 –> 00:31:34,042
get made by somebody who, let’s say

515
00:31:34,178 –> 00:31:37,738
on a discipleship scale of one to ten is an

516
00:31:37,786 –> 00:31:41,554
eight, looks back at the individuals that he

517
00:31:41,594 –> 00:31:44,978
knows and finds

518
00:31:45,026 –> 00:31:48,746
somebody who on that same discipleship scale might be a

519
00:31:48,770 –> 00:31:52,610
five, six, seven, and goes

520
00:31:52,642 –> 00:31:56,050
to them and says, you know what? I’d like to hang out with

521
00:31:56,082 –> 00:31:59,818
you. Because I think that we could help each other in our

522
00:31:59,866 –> 00:32:02,934
spiritual walk. And that person’s intention

523
00:32:03,354 –> 00:32:07,116
is to download for them, whatever it

524
00:32:07,140 –> 00:32:10,348
is that they’ve learned that’s gotten them up to stop eight on that

525
00:32:10,396 –> 00:32:14,212
journey, he or she wants to grab them by the hand

526
00:32:14,268 –> 00:32:18,068
or the shoulder and help them move forward on that

527
00:32:18,116 –> 00:32:21,916
pathway. Most american adults, in

528
00:32:21,940 –> 00:32:25,324
terms of their christian faith, are not

529
00:32:25,404 –> 00:32:28,700
moving forward. They are where they

530
00:32:28,772 –> 00:32:32,292
are. And the research I’ve been doing shows that they pretty much

531
00:32:32,348 –> 00:32:35,938
stick there for years and years and years.

532
00:32:36,106 –> 00:32:39,706
They don’t make much progress. Why? Because what we do in

533
00:32:39,730 –> 00:32:43,258
churches doesn’t help them. You know, we

534
00:32:43,306 –> 00:32:46,810
preach at them, we put them in small groups, which,

535
00:32:46,882 –> 00:32:50,294
frankly, are designed for two primary purposes,

536
00:32:50,754 –> 00:32:54,562
one of which is to build relationships among those people

537
00:32:54,618 –> 00:32:58,442
so people feel connected to the church. And that relates to

538
00:32:58,458 –> 00:33:02,294
the second reason, which is to keep them coming to the church. But it’s

539
00:33:02,334 –> 00:33:06,014
really not about discipleship. And

540
00:33:06,054 –> 00:33:09,126
so if we want discipleship, number one, there’s got to be a

541
00:33:09,150 –> 00:33:12,694
relationship between a more mature disciple and a less

542
00:33:12,734 –> 00:33:16,502
mature disciple. It’s got to be one on one. It’s got

543
00:33:16,518 –> 00:33:20,110
to be a situation where they meet frequently

544
00:33:20,302 –> 00:33:23,734
and they talk about all aspects of

545
00:33:23,774 –> 00:33:27,606
life, because discipleship covers every dimension of who you

546
00:33:27,630 –> 00:33:31,454
are and how you live. And what the

547
00:33:31,494 –> 00:33:34,894
discipler needs to be doing is intentionally thinking

548
00:33:34,934 –> 00:33:38,758
about whatever the issues are in the life or the

549
00:33:38,806 –> 00:33:42,526
challenges in the life of the person that I’m discipling. I want

550
00:33:42,550 –> 00:33:46,326
to understand them, I want to be sympathetic to them, but

551
00:33:46,350 –> 00:33:50,070
I want to be bringing God’s word into them. And

552
00:33:50,102 –> 00:33:53,474
I need to be modeling for that person. I’m discipling

553
00:33:53,854 –> 00:33:57,670
how I deal with those same kinds of challenges, not

554
00:33:57,702 –> 00:34:01,342
because I’m perfect, but because maybe I’ve learned a thing or

555
00:34:01,358 –> 00:34:05,158
two that would help that other individual to grow,

556
00:34:05,246 –> 00:34:08,590
to move down the pathway of mature spiritual maturity,

557
00:34:08,702 –> 00:34:12,314
biblical maturity. And that’s my job.

558
00:34:13,734 –> 00:34:16,638
A great discipler is a

559
00:34:16,686 –> 00:34:19,806
master at socratic

560
00:34:19,870 –> 00:34:23,626
dialogue. Now, socratic dialogue

561
00:34:23,770 –> 00:34:27,426
is kind of a fancy term for don’t tell people

562
00:34:27,490 –> 00:34:31,330
what to do. Just ask them questions about what they’re doing and why they’re

563
00:34:31,362 –> 00:34:34,626
doing it. And through that, that

564
00:34:34,690 –> 00:34:38,426
then breaks down the defenses of the person

565
00:34:38,490 –> 00:34:42,058
that you’re discipling and makes them curious

566
00:34:42,146 –> 00:34:45,666
about the things that you’re asking about. You’re asking them

567
00:34:45,770 –> 00:34:49,557
why they do something. You’re asking them why or

568
00:34:49,605 –> 00:34:53,033
how they came to that conclusion, that that was the best thing to do.

569
00:34:53,573 –> 00:34:57,349
And eventually they’re going to think, well, maybe this person

570
00:34:57,421 –> 00:35:01,069
has some ideas on that. And then they start asking you questions about,

571
00:35:01,101 –> 00:35:04,749
well, how would you handle it? Why would you handle it that way?

572
00:35:04,861 –> 00:35:07,753
Have you ever done that how did it turn out?

573
00:35:08,413 –> 00:35:11,877
And as the more mature discipler,

574
00:35:12,045 –> 00:35:15,837
you not only get to answer those questions, but you get to bring biblical

575
00:35:15,885 –> 00:35:19,614
principles into your answers. And now that’s at the center of your

576
00:35:19,654 –> 00:35:23,470
conversation. That’s how discipleship works. That’s what

577
00:35:23,502 –> 00:35:26,958
Jesus did. That’s the only reason that I think it works

578
00:35:27,086 –> 00:35:30,774
is Jesus modeled that for us. And so

579
00:35:30,814 –> 00:35:34,614
the more that we can take that into our relationships with people

580
00:35:34,734 –> 00:35:38,438
who are willing to grow, maybe even have a desire

581
00:35:38,526 –> 00:35:41,594
to grow as a follower of Jesus,

582
00:35:42,134 –> 00:35:45,576
you know, those are some of the important elements embedded in that process.

583
00:35:45,750 –> 00:35:49,564
Small groups don’t facilitate that because every person in that

584
00:35:49,604 –> 00:35:53,332
group is at a different place on that continuum. Every person

585
00:35:53,388 –> 00:35:57,036
in that group needs personal attention. Every person

586
00:35:57,100 –> 00:36:00,468
in that group has to have a different approach, a different

587
00:36:00,556 –> 00:36:04,356
answer to what they’re struggling with and how they’re struggling with

588
00:36:04,380 –> 00:36:07,868
it and what they could be doing that would advance

589
00:36:07,956 –> 00:36:11,476
them on that pathway. And so this whole group

590
00:36:11,540 –> 00:36:15,386
thing, it’s terrific for making us feel like we’re part

591
00:36:15,410 –> 00:36:18,970
of, quote unquote, the church. That’s great, but let’s not

592
00:36:19,002 –> 00:36:22,666
confuse it with a discipleship program. Yeah. There

593
00:36:22,690 –> 00:36:26,498
are a few elements that are critical to church life.

594
00:36:26,666 –> 00:36:30,090
The first is that the pastor is teaching the

595
00:36:30,122 –> 00:36:33,874
word faithfully. One of the important ones, though, is

596
00:36:33,914 –> 00:36:37,640
fellowship. There’s corporate worship. There’s teaching of the word

597
00:36:37,802 –> 00:36:41,548
we break to break bread together. And fellowship, as believers

598
00:36:41,676 –> 00:36:45,340
and small groups do, fill that hole in a good way and that you do

599
00:36:45,372 –> 00:36:48,812
build relationships. Um, I do think it’s important to feel

600
00:36:48,868 –> 00:36:52,700
attached to the body, but I agree with you that it

601
00:36:52,732 –> 00:36:56,304
doesn’t necessarily create that deep, deep relationship with Christ.

602
00:36:56,884 –> 00:37:00,380
What you’re talking about, though, was all predicated on

603
00:37:00,532 –> 00:37:04,172
the fact that you have to have someone who is spiritually, spiritually

604
00:37:04,228 –> 00:37:07,654
mature. You talk about that eight, and

605
00:37:07,734 –> 00:37:11,406
unfortunately, we find that in the church currently, there aren’t many

606
00:37:11,430 –> 00:37:15,174
of those eights who are able to minister to the fives. So I

607
00:37:15,214 –> 00:37:18,990
want to get into why we are in this place and

608
00:37:19,022 –> 00:37:22,670
how we make more eights. But first I need to take a

609
00:37:22,702 –> 00:37:25,934
quick break and do a little bit of

610
00:37:26,014 –> 00:37:29,798
business, and then we’ll get right back to it. Men,

611
00:37:29,846 –> 00:37:33,246
if you’re enjoying this conversation, I have to ask a favor of

612
00:37:33,270 –> 00:37:36,870
you. Please share this show. As you know, the

613
00:37:36,902 –> 00:37:40,606
Thinking Dad is a brand new podcast, and we need your help to get

614
00:37:40,630 –> 00:37:44,022
the word out. We want to see this encouragement reach

615
00:37:44,118 –> 00:37:47,862
millions of men, but we can’t do it without you. So

616
00:37:47,918 –> 00:37:51,486
please take a minute to share the show. If you’re watching the video on

617
00:37:51,510 –> 00:37:55,190
YouTube or another video platform. Please take a minute, click

618
00:37:55,222 –> 00:37:58,914
the like button, subscribe to the channel, and then leave a comment.

619
00:37:58,994 –> 00:38:02,386
It really does help with the algorithms. If you’re just listening to the

620
00:38:02,410 –> 00:38:06,258
podcast, please rate and review the show that lets

621
00:38:06,306 –> 00:38:09,994
other people know why they need to be listening. Also,

622
00:38:10,154 –> 00:38:13,722
you’ll notice, in honor of Dr. Barna, I’m wearing my

623
00:38:13,778 –> 00:38:17,482
“Think Biblically” t-shirt. You can stop by the Thinking Dad

624
00:38:17,538 –> 00:38:20,874
store, get your own shirt, and start to think

625
00:38:20,914 –> 00:38:24,632
biblically. It really does help to support the show. And then I want to

626
00:38:24,648 –> 00:38:28,440
ask one more favor of you. As I mentioned, CTCMath

627
00:38:28,552 –> 00:38:32,088
has come in in a big way this year to support the Thinking Dad

628
00:38:32,216 –> 00:38:35,848
right from the get go. They were there with us because they believe in this

629
00:38:35,896 –> 00:38:38,464
mission. Would you take a minute? Go to

630
00:38:38,504 –> 00:38:42,272
CTCMath.com and just drop them a quick note saying thank

631
00:38:42,368 –> 00:38:46,080
you for supporting the show. And if your kids need a

632
00:38:46,112 –> 00:38:49,638
great math curriculum that will really help them establish

633
00:38:49,776 –> 00:38:53,554
a solid foundation, check them out. You can even try it

634
00:38:53,594 –> 00:38:57,314
for free CTCMath.com. All right, let’s

635
00:38:57,354 –> 00:39:01,026
get back into it with Dr. Barna. Okay, we

636
00:39:01,050 –> 00:39:04,490
talked about those eights on the discipleship scale.

637
00:39:04,682 –> 00:39:08,250
But as you look at the research, you’re finding that very few people,

638
00:39:08,362 –> 00:39:12,170
even in the church, have a solid biblical worldview,

639
00:39:12,242 –> 00:39:15,890
including many times pastors, youth pastors,

640
00:39:15,962 –> 00:39:19,626
worship pastors. How do you feel we’ve gotten here?

641
00:39:19,730 –> 00:39:23,290
Well, that’s a four

642
00:39:23,362 –> 00:39:24,574
hour conversation.

643
00:39:26,954 –> 00:39:30,374
Maybe the short of it is, part of it is that

644
00:39:30,714 –> 00:39:32,894
the local church has dropped the ball.

645
00:39:34,754 –> 00:39:38,042
Part of the way that I could maybe best describe that is

646
00:39:38,098 –> 00:39:41,694
by talking about the research we’ve done with pastors.

647
00:39:42,394 –> 00:39:46,230
One of the things that we discovered is that when

648
00:39:46,262 –> 00:39:49,950
we ask a representative national sample

649
00:39:49,982 –> 00:39:53,806
of pastors, is your church effective in ministry?

650
00:39:53,990 –> 00:39:57,222
We find that more than four out of five of them, well over four out

651
00:39:57,238 –> 00:40:00,646
of five of them say, oh, yes, we’re effective in ministry. It’s like,

652
00:40:00,670 –> 00:40:04,046
great. And then our follow up question is, how do you know

653
00:40:04,070 –> 00:40:07,918
that? What we found is that the

654
00:40:07,966 –> 00:40:11,374
typical church in America, christian church, measures

655
00:40:11,454 –> 00:40:15,170
five things to determine whether or not they’re effective

656
00:40:15,202 –> 00:40:19,026
in ministry. How many people attend the church, how

657
00:40:19,050 –> 00:40:22,674
much money the church raises, how many programs they offer, how many

658
00:40:22,714 –> 00:40:26,546
staff people they’ve hired, and how much square footage they’ve

659
00:40:26,570 –> 00:40:29,650
built out on their campus. And the

660
00:40:29,802 –> 00:40:33,554
assumption is, or the thinking behind that is, if

661
00:40:33,634 –> 00:40:37,162
all five of those numbers are bigger this weekend than they were last

662
00:40:37,218 –> 00:40:40,774
week, the same weekend 52 weeks ago,

663
00:40:41,254 –> 00:40:44,854
a year ago, we’re a healthy and growing

664
00:40:44,894 –> 00:40:46,994
church. That’s the phrase that gets used.

665
00:40:48,854 –> 00:40:52,454
I’m. A measurement guy, Garritt, so I’m happy they’re measuring

666
00:40:52,534 –> 00:40:56,222
stuff. But as a measurement guy, I’ve learned, and

667
00:40:56,278 –> 00:41:00,006
in some cases, learned the hard way, if you measure the wrong things,

668
00:41:00,110 –> 00:41:03,742
you’re going to create the wrong things. I would

669
00:41:03,798 –> 00:41:07,510
suggest that when what you’re measuring is attendance and

670
00:41:07,542 –> 00:41:11,320
money and programs and staff and square footage, Jesus didn’t die

671
00:41:11,352 –> 00:41:14,936
for any of those. Which says to me, oh, my

672
00:41:14,960 –> 00:41:17,764
gosh, I think we’re measuring the wrong things.

673
00:41:18,824 –> 00:41:22,644
And when you do measure those things,

674
00:41:22,984 –> 00:41:26,400
what is it that they say about why you exist

675
00:41:26,472 –> 00:41:30,248
and what you consider success to be? Well,

676
00:41:30,296 –> 00:41:33,584
basically it says, the bigger the better. And

677
00:41:33,624 –> 00:41:37,382
so the shortcut way of thinking about it is

678
00:41:37,488 –> 00:41:41,330
we want to be a megachurch. And if we become a megachurch, then we’re effective

679
00:41:41,362 –> 00:41:45,130
in ministry. And I can tell you from a number of other research

680
00:41:45,202 –> 00:41:48,746
projects that I’ve done, that’s usually not the

681
00:41:48,770 –> 00:41:52,450
case. There are some great mega churches in America, but most

682
00:41:52,482 –> 00:41:56,290
of them are just kind of piddling along. They’re very good at marketing, but they’re

683
00:41:56,322 –> 00:41:59,894
not necessarily great at discipling. So

684
00:42:00,634 –> 00:42:04,328
that’s one issue. The second issue is the family. It’s not just

685
00:42:04,376 –> 00:42:07,888
the local church. It’s the family as well. Parents,

686
00:42:08,056 –> 00:42:11,824
biblically speaking, have the primary responsibility for

687
00:42:11,864 –> 00:42:15,296
raising their children to be disciples of Jesus.

688
00:42:15,480 –> 00:42:18,844
Right. As I allude to in the book,

689
00:42:19,224 –> 00:42:22,512
raising spiritual champions, the research that’s in there that we did for the

690
00:42:22,528 –> 00:42:25,712
book, most parents, that’s not even on their radar

691
00:42:25,768 –> 00:42:29,488
screen. When we ask them if they’re successful as

692
00:42:29,536 –> 00:42:33,120
parents, most of them say yes, and it has

693
00:42:33,192 –> 00:42:36,484
nothing to do with what they’re doing spiritually with their children.

694
00:42:36,864 –> 00:42:39,684
That’s not one of the criteria for success.

695
00:42:40,184 –> 00:42:43,784
So I think those are two dominant things. But then the

696
00:42:43,824 –> 00:42:47,464
third one is that we’ve allowed the culture

697
00:42:47,624 –> 00:42:50,856
to raise our children. Right now, the

698
00:42:50,920 –> 00:42:54,736
dominant influence on the minds and hearts of children in

699
00:42:54,760 –> 00:42:57,884
America is the arts and entertainment media industry.

700
00:42:58,464 –> 00:43:01,776
As I did our research, trying to figure out what makes us think what we

701
00:43:01,800 –> 00:43:05,336
think and do what we do. What we discovered is that it’s

702
00:43:05,400 –> 00:43:08,816
primarily from all the media messages that

703
00:43:08,920 –> 00:43:12,528
we allow ourselves to be exposed to

704
00:43:12,576 –> 00:43:16,040
every single day. Thousands and thousands

705
00:43:16,152 –> 00:43:19,360
of those messages. And as I said at the top of our

706
00:43:19,392 –> 00:43:22,164
interview, every one of those messages

707
00:43:22,784 –> 00:43:26,224
is founded on a worldview.

708
00:43:26,764 –> 00:43:30,292
And so every day we’re being bombarded with thousands of worldview

709
00:43:30,348 –> 00:43:34,028
messages. Our children are being bombarded with

710
00:43:34,076 –> 00:43:37,676
thousands of worldview messages. And neither parents

711
00:43:37,820 –> 00:43:41,420
nor churches are there to monitor that and

712
00:43:41,452 –> 00:43:45,188
to screen that and to minimize it as needs to be

713
00:43:45,236 –> 00:43:49,004
done for the good of our children and for the

714
00:43:49,044 –> 00:43:51,864
benefit of them becoming disciples,

715
00:43:52,934 –> 00:43:56,270
because, again, I’ve got a chapter in the book looking at the

716
00:43:56,302 –> 00:43:59,582
media that our children are exposed to. We did content

717
00:43:59,678 –> 00:44:03,238
analysis of that, and I can tell you very confidently

718
00:44:03,286 –> 00:44:06,998
that our children, even the children of born again

719
00:44:07,046 –> 00:44:10,350
parents, are not being exposed to

720
00:44:10,422 –> 00:44:13,514
biblical messages through the media that they’re watching.

721
00:44:15,054 –> 00:44:18,714
Those are three of the dominant elements. Yeah. As you

722
00:44:18,754 –> 00:44:22,414
talk about the measurement aspect in churches,

723
00:44:22,994 –> 00:44:26,786
I’m struck by conversations I’ve had with my dad, who attended

724
00:44:26,850 –> 00:44:30,546
Bible College in the early seventies. And at the time,

725
00:44:30,610 –> 00:44:33,894
they were just starting these courses on church growth

726
00:44:34,554 –> 00:44:38,386
that were core to what would become the progression, I

727
00:44:38,410 –> 00:44:41,802
guess, through the nineties and the two thousands and today,

728
00:44:41,978 –> 00:44:45,546
where we’ve grown to a place where we don’t even recognize churches

729
00:44:45,690 –> 00:44:49,418
unless they have hundreds of members on multiple sites. And yet

730
00:44:49,466 –> 00:44:52,938
what we’ve recognized, um, our family has had the unique

731
00:44:52,986 –> 00:44:56,186
position of traveling the country quite a bit,

732
00:44:56,330 –> 00:45:00,130
visiting churches in many towns and then settling in a new

733
00:45:00,162 –> 00:45:03,914
town and trying to find a church, actually, during COVID which

734
00:45:03,954 –> 00:45:07,794
made everything harder. But what you find as you visit these

735
00:45:07,834 –> 00:45:11,178
churches is so many of them have made it such a high

736
00:45:11,226 –> 00:45:15,042
priority to look good to the community and to be inviting

737
00:45:15,098 –> 00:45:18,890
to the community that they’re just the community. These, I

738
00:45:18,962 –> 00:45:22,610
like to call them broad road churches, and that they’re just no

739
00:45:22,682 –> 00:45:26,530
different from the. From the community. And I’m

740
00:45:26,562 –> 00:45:30,386
glad that you turned the conversation toward parents, because, actually,

741
00:45:30,570 –> 00:45:34,354
I don’t think that this solution is necessarily going to be found

742
00:45:34,394 –> 00:45:37,806
in churches. What I’ve grown to believe is that

743
00:45:37,930 –> 00:45:41,542
churches are the way they are because the people sitting in the

744
00:45:41,558 –> 00:45:45,342
pews are demanding that they be that way. It. It is

745
00:45:45,398 –> 00:45:48,854
one thing for pastors to have, let’s say, an ego that’s driven by

746
00:45:48,894 –> 00:45:52,550
growth, right? But if the people sitting in the churches don’t demand

747
00:45:52,622 –> 00:45:56,070
that the church is biblically faithful and that discipleship is

748
00:45:56,102 –> 00:45:59,238
happening and that they’re looking different from the world,

749
00:45:59,406 –> 00:46:02,910
nothing’s going to change. And so I’m reminded

750
00:46:02,982 –> 00:46:06,734
of deuteronomy six. And what we’re

751
00:46:06,774 –> 00:46:10,222
talking about in disciple making really

752
00:46:10,318 –> 00:46:13,966
starts at home. I’d actually like to read this real

753
00:46:13,990 –> 00:46:17,782
quick. I have it pulled up. Deuteronomy six, six and seven

754
00:46:17,838 –> 00:46:21,598
says this. And these words that I command you today shall be

755
00:46:21,646 –> 00:46:25,446
on your heart, and you shall teach them diligently to your children,

756
00:46:25,590 –> 00:46:29,342
and you shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk

757
00:46:29,438 –> 00:46:33,284
by the way, when you lie down. And when you rise, this

758
00:46:33,324 –> 00:46:36,824
is disciple making. And the first thing I’m struck by

759
00:46:37,164 –> 00:46:40,884
is that before we can even talk of these things while we walk

760
00:46:40,924 –> 00:46:44,364
along the way, these things have to be on our

761
00:46:44,404 –> 00:46:47,756
hearts. So as Christians, we have to be

762
00:46:47,780 –> 00:46:51,556
dedicated to knowing the truth, growing in the truth before we

763
00:46:51,580 –> 00:46:55,420
can even share the truth. And yet, in your book, you mark

764
00:46:55,492 –> 00:46:59,304
that. The quote here is research reveals

765
00:46:59,344 –> 00:47:02,464
a paltry 2% of parents of

766
00:47:02,504 –> 00:47:06,256
preteens have a biblical worldview, which

767
00:47:06,280 –> 00:47:09,992
is just terrifying. So I guess what I

768
00:47:10,008 –> 00:47:13,720
would ask you is, how do we get those eights?

769
00:47:13,872 –> 00:47:17,648
I know that you talk about how we get the fives to be eights,

770
00:47:17,776 –> 00:47:21,608
how we grow those people and disciple those people. But where do we

771
00:47:21,656 –> 00:47:25,296
start now to build those eights? Well, I

772
00:47:25,320 –> 00:47:28,604
think part of it is going to the eight

773
00:47:29,304 –> 00:47:33,032
and helping them to understand that the only people

774
00:47:33,088 –> 00:47:35,964
that make disciples are disciples.

775
00:47:36,944 –> 00:47:40,640
And that’s because you can’t give what

776
00:47:40,672 –> 00:47:44,432
you don’t have. You’re not a disciple. You’re not going to make somebody else a

777
00:47:44,448 –> 00:47:47,804
disciple. How could you do that? You couldn’t even make yourself one.

778
00:47:49,764 –> 00:47:52,264
It’s important that that 8%

779
00:47:53,284 –> 00:47:57,012
realize, you know what? This is a special time in american

780
00:47:57,108 –> 00:48:00,940
history. The country is in danger. The

781
00:48:00,972 –> 00:48:04,564
church has deteriorated. Our families are

782
00:48:04,604 –> 00:48:07,900
dissipating. This is not a normal

783
00:48:07,972 –> 00:48:11,348
time, so to speak. It’s an emergency

784
00:48:11,516 –> 00:48:15,340
or crisis time. And so if you are a disciple

785
00:48:15,372 –> 00:48:19,204
of Jesus, you know, going back to the common phrase in Ruth, you know,

786
00:48:19,324 –> 00:48:22,940
you’re here for such a time as this. Amen. This is

787
00:48:23,012 –> 00:48:26,820
your moment. This is when we need you

788
00:48:27,012 –> 00:48:30,204
to rethink everything you’re doing and recognize,

789
00:48:30,284 –> 00:48:33,964
again, like we were talking about with the seven cornerstones, it’s not

790
00:48:34,004 –> 00:48:37,628
about you. You’re here for him. You have

791
00:48:37,676 –> 00:48:41,268
become a disciple by his grace. And

792
00:48:41,396 –> 00:48:44,900
what he wants from you is that you will help

793
00:48:44,972 –> 00:48:48,546
other people to become disciples. Hes never going to

794
00:48:48,570 –> 00:48:52,154
stand in heaven when youre there before him and say, so

795
00:48:52,234 –> 00:48:55,434
did you get a raise? Did you make that

796
00:48:55,474 –> 00:48:59,162
promotion? Did you move into the better neighborhood?

797
00:48:59,218 –> 00:49:02,162
None of that matters. What hes going to say is, how many people did you

798
00:49:02,178 –> 00:49:05,214
bring with you? Let me look behind you and see what you got.

799
00:49:06,714 –> 00:49:10,442
Thats what matters. Its not just about

800
00:49:10,498 –> 00:49:13,894
the justification. Its the sanctification part as well,

801
00:49:14,484 –> 00:49:18,300
the salvation. And then it’s the purification, if you will, of your

802
00:49:18,332 –> 00:49:22,180
mind and your heart and your soul by embracing God’s word

803
00:49:22,212 –> 00:49:25,264
and trying to be christlike. So

804
00:49:25,844 –> 00:49:29,676
I’d say, as a disciple, if you

805
00:49:29,700 –> 00:49:30,904
are going to

806
00:49:33,204 –> 00:49:37,044
print a business card to give out to

807
00:49:37,084 –> 00:49:40,808
people, one of the best things you could put on it under your name

808
00:49:40,956 –> 00:49:43,964
where you’ve got your title, is disciple.

809
00:49:44,584 –> 00:49:48,096
Start thinking of yourself as being primarily

810
00:49:48,200 –> 00:49:51,864
a disciple. And every time when you

811
00:49:51,904 –> 00:49:55,164
look at that, say to yourself, what does that mean?

812
00:49:55,504 –> 00:49:59,120
What does that mean? Yeah, I need to think like Jesus so I can act

813
00:49:59,152 –> 00:50:02,336
like Jesus, but what am I doing? What do I

814
00:50:02,360 –> 00:50:06,080
produce? I make disciples. What am I doing right

815
00:50:06,112 –> 00:50:09,920
now to make disciples? We’ve got to have that in front of us all the

816
00:50:09,952 –> 00:50:13,760
time. The time is short. Nobody knows how much time there

817
00:50:13,792 –> 00:50:17,520
is, but it’s short. We got

818
00:50:17,552 –> 00:50:21,200
to be focused on the fact that particularly if I’m a

819
00:50:21,232 –> 00:50:24,968
parent or in my case, I’m a grandparent now.

820
00:50:25,136 –> 00:50:28,640
It’s like, okay, I’ve got just a short window of

821
00:50:28,672 –> 00:50:32,088
time, and I’ve got to be focused on these lives, building that

822
00:50:32,136 –> 00:50:35,740
relationship, making sure they trust me. I know they only trust me

823
00:50:35,772 –> 00:50:39,460
when I’m consistently obeying God. They hear what I’m

824
00:50:39,492 –> 00:50:42,984
saying and they see what I’m doing. They match. Okay, they can trust me

825
00:50:43,284 –> 00:50:46,596
and they know that I love them and I care about them and I want

826
00:50:46,620 –> 00:50:50,420
the best for them. And I’m willing to put my time aside

827
00:50:50,492 –> 00:50:54,060
for them. And I want to have these conversations with them. And the

828
00:50:54,092 –> 00:50:57,676
conversations we have are different because it’s socratic dialogue.

829
00:50:57,780 –> 00:51:01,566
I’m just asking them questions. I’m observing, and then I’m asking

830
00:51:01,630 –> 00:51:05,286
questions, and I’m bringing it back to God’s word. I mean, that’s what we do

831
00:51:05,310 –> 00:51:09,046
as disciplers. And so, you know, always have a list of

832
00:51:09,070 –> 00:51:12,582
people that you’re discipling, people that you love, that you care about,

833
00:51:12,718 –> 00:51:16,534
not because you’re great. God made them. He cared about it before you

834
00:51:16,574 –> 00:51:20,014
did. He’s loved them longer than you have and deeper than you

835
00:51:20,054 –> 00:51:23,670
do, but he’s called you to be his stand in,

836
00:51:23,782 –> 00:51:27,540
to love them and care about them enough that you’ll bring them into the kingdom,

837
00:51:27,662 –> 00:51:31,128
you’ll help them to become disciples of Jesus, and

838
00:51:31,176 –> 00:51:34,848
then help them to turn around and do the same thing. Print up their

839
00:51:34,896 –> 00:51:38,464
business card form where it says disciple and let them proudly,

840
00:51:38,504 –> 00:51:42,248
and, you know, confidently go out into the world and

841
00:51:42,296 –> 00:51:46,080
represent Christ. Amen. It’s on us. It’s on

842
00:51:46,112 –> 00:51:49,904
you. Dads, I love that you didn’t say, you know, get into

843
00:51:49,944 –> 00:51:53,758
a program on Saturdays at your church or Wednesday nights. And.

844
00:51:53,806 –> 00:51:57,014
And we are church people. We want to be in faithful

845
00:51:57,054 –> 00:52:00,710
fellowship, but truly it starts with our desire to

846
00:52:00,742 –> 00:52:04,486
grow. And, uh, it ironically

847
00:52:04,550 –> 00:52:08,390
boils back down to doctor Grudem’s. Suggestion that

848
00:52:08,422 –> 00:52:12,086
we put the whole bible into practice. You mentioned early in

849
00:52:12,110 –> 00:52:15,934
our interview that we only have to be a few steps ahead of our

850
00:52:15,974 –> 00:52:19,774
kids. And this is one thing I love about the christian walk, is that

851
00:52:19,894 –> 00:52:23,726
God’s word is powerful. I often counsel dads

852
00:52:23,750 –> 00:52:27,366
and. And talk to dads and tell them, look, if you do nothing

853
00:52:27,430 –> 00:52:31,158
else, just open up his word and start reading.

854
00:52:31,286 –> 00:52:34,934
Because truly, for us to become disciples, it is a process

855
00:52:35,014 –> 00:52:38,654
of growth over time that requires us being in

856
00:52:38,694 –> 00:52:42,422
his word and then also sharing that with our kids.

857
00:52:42,558 –> 00:52:45,958
But that’s. That’s so good. So. So I want to ask

858
00:52:46,006 –> 00:52:49,736
you, uh, I want to get back to a

859
00:52:49,760 –> 00:52:53,440
little bit the church, um, because so much of this has

860
00:52:53,472 –> 00:52:56,604
been focused on us. And yet you mentioned earlier

861
00:52:56,904 –> 00:53:00,552
that one of the reasons we’re in this place is that parents have

862
00:53:00,608 –> 00:53:04,400
outsourced the discipleship of their kids. That happens day to day in

863
00:53:04,432 –> 00:53:08,104
school, but it also happens on Wednesday nights and

864
00:53:08,144 –> 00:53:11,776
Sunday mornings. So what do you think the proper

865
00:53:11,880 –> 00:53:15,624
division of labor should look like for discipleship of our own

866
00:53:15,664 –> 00:53:19,368
kids between the home and the church? Well,

867
00:53:19,536 –> 00:53:23,296
the church, the local church, exists to support

868
00:53:23,440 –> 00:53:26,864
parents in raising their children to be spiritual

869
00:53:26,904 –> 00:53:30,632
champions. It’s not the parents job to drop off the kids and

870
00:53:30,648 –> 00:53:34,392
say to the children’s pastor, get it done. I mean, it’s really

871
00:53:34,448 –> 00:53:38,232
the job of the children’s pastor to come alongside

872
00:53:38,328 –> 00:53:41,624
the parents and work together with them as a team,

873
00:53:42,164 –> 00:53:45,916
where the children’s pastor isn’t even supposed to be the leader

874
00:53:45,980 –> 00:53:49,820
of that team. The parents need to be leading that team.

875
00:53:50,012 –> 00:53:53,364
And what the children’s pastor needs to do is to resource the

876
00:53:53,404 –> 00:53:56,944
parents, help them to have what they need. Maybe that’s

877
00:53:57,644 –> 00:54:01,036
more theological education. Maybe it’s

878
00:54:01,180 –> 00:54:04,956
resources for in the home. Maybe it’s events that the

879
00:54:04,980 –> 00:54:08,380
church can put on where the parent and the child interact

880
00:54:08,452 –> 00:54:11,964
together under the support the

881
00:54:12,944 –> 00:54:16,688
perspective of the church. But it’s not the

882
00:54:16,816 –> 00:54:20,336
children’s ministry that’s responsible for that

883
00:54:20,440 –> 00:54:23,816
and praise the Lord that that’s the case because we found that only

884
00:54:23,880 –> 00:54:27,696
12% of children’s pastors across the country have

885
00:54:27,720 –> 00:54:31,440
a biblical worldview. I say some things that

886
00:54:31,472 –> 00:54:35,216
upset a lot of people. One of those things I say is, hey, if you’re

887
00:54:35,240 –> 00:54:38,880
a parent, you better do your homework about where you’re going to take your

888
00:54:38,912 –> 00:54:42,704
child to church, because in seven out of eight cases, they’re

889
00:54:42,744 –> 00:54:46,384
going to be in harm’s way when you take them to church,

890
00:54:46,464 –> 00:54:50,136
theologically speaking. And so you better do

891
00:54:50,160 –> 00:54:53,808
your homework and know that where you’re bringing them is going to

892
00:54:53,856 –> 00:54:57,648
help you to make them into a disciple, not throw up roadblocks

893
00:54:57,696 –> 00:55:01,192
and obstacles in that process. I want to

894
00:55:01,328 –> 00:55:04,776
briefly jump off of that. Then

895
00:55:04,960 –> 00:55:08,780
you say it’s the parents responsibility to know what they’re being taught.

896
00:55:08,952 –> 00:55:12,796
How do you know if you can trust your children’s pastor at your church? How

897
00:55:12,820 –> 00:55:16,172
do you know if you can trust the word of the pastor who’s in the

898
00:55:16,188 –> 00:55:19,988
pulpit? What should we be looking for in the leadership of our churches?

899
00:55:20,036 –> 00:55:23,628
Yeah, you can’t trust their word, just like they can’t trust my word. You

900
00:55:23,636 –> 00:55:27,148
know, you’ve got to look at the fruit. You know, when Jesus

901
00:55:27,196 –> 00:55:30,892
talked about what makes a disciple? There are six things that he gave

902
00:55:30,948 –> 00:55:34,772
us. You know, in John eight, he talked about,

903
00:55:34,868 –> 00:55:38,448
you’ll be my disciple if you obey my teaching. John 13,

904
00:55:38,616 –> 00:55:42,280
he said, you’ll be my disciple if you love other disciples. John

905
00:55:42,352 –> 00:55:45,904
15, here’s a key one. You’ll be my disciple if you produce

906
00:55:46,024 –> 00:55:49,776
a lot of spiritual fruit. Then in Luke 14,

907
00:55:49,880 –> 00:55:53,624
three different areas. He said, you can’t be my disciple unless

908
00:55:53,664 –> 00:55:57,272
you love God above everything else, unless you pick up your cross and

909
00:55:57,288 –> 00:56:00,084
follow me, which meant submit to my authority alone

910
00:56:00,944 –> 00:56:04,780
and unless you surrender everything for my agenda. But

911
00:56:04,972 –> 00:56:08,812
that John 15 eight passage where he talks about, produce a

912
00:56:08,828 –> 00:56:12,260
lot of spiritual fruit. If I’m going to go to a

913
00:56:12,292 –> 00:56:16,060
church, I want to be able to observe a pastor who’s not

914
00:56:16,092 –> 00:56:19,384
just teaching fancy stuff up on a platform.

915
00:56:20,044 –> 00:56:23,476
I want to know that this person is actually serving in the

916
00:56:23,500 –> 00:56:27,124
community. I want to know that he’s got a good marriage and that he’s

917
00:56:27,164 –> 00:56:30,834
raised his children to be spiritual champions. I want to

918
00:56:30,874 –> 00:56:34,354
know that he’s teaching good stuff from the scriptures,

919
00:56:34,474 –> 00:56:37,882
which means I probably need to get a few cds or go online, listen to

920
00:56:37,898 –> 00:56:41,418
some sermons and compare it to scripture. See, is

921
00:56:41,466 –> 00:56:45,178
this God’s truth? Am I getting good stuff or am I getting the

922
00:56:45,226 –> 00:56:49,026
world kind of trickling in and influencing what’s going on?

923
00:56:49,130 –> 00:56:52,410
Because we know that the world is influencing the church more than the church is

924
00:56:52,442 –> 00:56:56,114
influencing the world. So I’ve got to do my homework there.

925
00:56:56,154 –> 00:56:59,966
Same thing with the children’s pastor and so with the

926
00:56:59,990 –> 00:57:03,590
children’s ministry. I not only want to talk to or maybe even

927
00:57:03,662 –> 00:57:07,382
interview the children’s pastor, and if they get offended by that,

928
00:57:07,438 –> 00:57:10,942
great. It’s not the church for me. I want to look at their

929
00:57:10,998 –> 00:57:14,754
curriculum. I want to talk to some of the other

930
00:57:15,094 –> 00:57:18,710
people who are volunteering in there to find out

931
00:57:18,822 –> 00:57:22,566
their sense of what’s going on. I want to know what the schedule is

932
00:57:22,590 –> 00:57:26,274
going to be when my child’s in that room. How much time is being

933
00:57:26,314 –> 00:57:29,914
devoted to studying the Bible, to worshiping

934
00:57:29,954 –> 00:57:33,642
God, as opposed to playing games and all the

935
00:57:33,658 –> 00:57:37,410
other frivolous stuff? That’s critical stuff for me to know

936
00:57:37,442 –> 00:57:41,138
as a parent. And if it’s out of whack, I may

937
00:57:41,226 –> 00:57:44,642
love the senior pastor, but if the

938
00:57:44,698 –> 00:57:48,162
children’s ministry isn’t going to get the job done at wrong

939
00:57:48,218 –> 00:57:51,694
church for me, it’s not about me.

940
00:57:51,874 –> 00:57:55,646
I only bring my child to the church so that they can help me

941
00:57:55,670 –> 00:57:59,206
to raise my child to be a follower of Jesus Christ.

942
00:57:59,350 –> 00:58:02,326
If they’re not going to do that, if they’re going to be an obstruction in

943
00:58:02,350 –> 00:58:06,038
that process, I’ve got to keep looking. Yeah.

944
00:58:06,166 –> 00:58:09,910
Amen. And I want to encourage parents jumping off of that. Don’t

945
00:58:09,942 –> 00:58:13,686
be afraid to have your kids sit with you in church. It

946
00:58:13,750 –> 00:58:17,526
isn’t always the right practice to shuffle them off

947
00:58:17,550 –> 00:58:21,230
to children’s ministry. In fact, I would really be careful

948
00:58:21,382 –> 00:58:24,910
about how and when you do that. Don’t be afraid to have them sit with

949
00:58:24,942 –> 00:58:28,454
you and sit under heavy biblical teaching. It’ll be

950
00:58:28,494 –> 00:58:32,246
okay. They’ll. They’ll survive and they’ll actually learn and grow.

951
00:58:32,430 –> 00:58:36,014
Let me just say to that, too. I know you got. But that’s such a

952
00:58:36,054 –> 00:58:39,542
great point. It’s like if you’re there and there’s a great

953
00:58:39,598 –> 00:58:43,238
sermon and your kids doodling on the program, you know,

954
00:58:43,326 –> 00:58:46,794
afterwards, say, you know, maybe some of that you didn’t understand,

955
00:58:47,114 –> 00:58:50,866
but here’s what he was telling us, and here’s what I

956
00:58:50,890 –> 00:58:54,610
think it means for you. Bring it down to their level afterwards. That’s how

957
00:58:54,642 –> 00:58:58,442
the church can help support you. You get some goods, you share

958
00:58:58,498 –> 00:59:02,290
those goods with your kids. You make it real to them. You hold them

959
00:59:02,322 –> 00:59:05,994
accountable to it, just like I hold the pastor is going to hold you

960
00:59:06,034 –> 00:59:09,706
accountable to what he or she was teaching you. But

961
00:59:09,810 –> 00:59:13,634
that flow has to be there. It can’t just be. Yeah, just sit

962
00:59:13,674 –> 00:59:17,368
here and I hope you pick up a gem or two. No, you’ve. You’ve got

963
00:59:17,376 –> 00:59:20,524
to find the gem and polish it and put it in their ring.

964
00:59:20,864 –> 00:59:24,432
Amen. That time in the car after church

965
00:59:24,608 –> 00:59:28,456
is some of the most important discipleship time. What did

966
00:59:28,480 –> 00:59:32,024
you learn today? What did we hear? Let’s discuss it. It is

967
00:59:32,064 –> 00:59:35,856
so good. Yep. All right, I have one more question before we wrap it

968
00:59:35,880 –> 00:59:39,488
up. You mentioned this steep decline

969
00:59:39,656 –> 00:59:42,928
between the time you were doing research for Charles

970
00:59:42,976 –> 00:59:46,764
Colson until now in biblical worldview.

971
00:59:47,304 –> 00:59:50,952
Do you believe this is a winnable war and is it

972
00:59:51,008 –> 00:59:54,664
worth fighting. Well, number one, we know in the end, God wins.

973
00:59:54,744 –> 00:59:58,520
So I’m not worried about that. Secondly, we

974
00:59:58,552 –> 01:00:02,368
know that we’re living every moment of every day of our lives in

975
01:00:02,376 –> 01:00:06,112
the midst of an incredible spiritual

976
01:00:06,168 –> 01:00:09,744
battle where Satan is trying to destroy every one of

977
01:00:09,784 –> 01:00:13,518
us every day. And thirdly,

978
01:00:13,566 –> 01:00:17,414
we know that when God fights a battle, a war to

979
01:00:17,454 –> 01:00:21,194
transform a culture, he never waits until he has a majority.

980
01:00:21,494 –> 01:00:25,182
In fact, as we look in scripture at different passages, where

981
01:00:25,318 –> 01:00:29,110
we see him working through some of his dedicated servants

982
01:00:29,262 –> 01:00:33,038
to completely change the local culture, to

983
01:00:33,086 –> 01:00:36,406
honor and glorify him. If his

984
01:00:36,510 –> 01:00:40,086
servants had, let’s say, in the case, I think it was, Gideon had like

985
01:00:40,110 –> 01:00:43,566
a, I don’t know, 30,000 people or something. They were up against Midi knights,

986
01:00:43,590 –> 01:00:47,422
135,000. Oh, my gosh. They’re already overwhelmed by a factor

987
01:00:47,438 –> 01:00:50,918
of four to one. Well, God didn’t care. In fact,

988
01:00:51,046 –> 01:00:54,034
he sidelined most of Gideon’s people

989
01:00:54,694 –> 01:00:58,526
and put Gideon in there. I think it was like, with 300 people

990
01:00:58,670 –> 01:01:02,126
up against 135,000, numbers are

991
01:01:02,190 –> 01:01:05,798
irrelevant to God in that sense. So the fact

992
01:01:05,846 –> 01:01:09,366
that only 3% of adults in America today, I

993
01:01:09,390 –> 01:01:12,994
think, meet the Jesus standards for being disciples,

994
01:01:13,334 –> 01:01:17,118
we can turn this country upside down. If that 3%

995
01:01:17,206 –> 01:01:20,774
got busy serving Jesus with all the energy and

996
01:01:20,814 –> 01:01:24,566
passion they could muster, he’ll give us the courage, he’ll give us

997
01:01:24,590 –> 01:01:28,318
the resources, he’ll give us the tools. It’s in

998
01:01:28,366 –> 01:01:31,910
his power. We’re doing it anyway. It’s not our authority, it’s his.

999
01:01:32,062 –> 01:01:35,822
He’s called us to this. He’s not called us to fail. Yeah, we can

1000
01:01:35,838 –> 01:01:39,494
do this. Amen. I love it. I love that you bring in

1001
01:01:39,534 –> 01:01:42,926
Gideon, because Gideon is one of my favorite bible

1002
01:01:42,990 –> 01:01:46,754
characters. In that God included a man

1003
01:01:47,134 –> 01:01:50,790
as an example of a leader who God worked through,

1004
01:01:50,982 –> 01:01:54,830
who had such great faith, quote unquote, that he had to put

1005
01:01:54,862 –> 01:01:58,674
God to the test a few times before he even stepped forward.

1006
01:01:58,974 –> 01:02:02,614
And I look at that, and it’s easy to look at Gideon and go,

1007
01:02:02,654 –> 01:02:06,432
man, what a dummy. Why’d you do that? But we have to understand,

1008
01:02:06,608 –> 01:02:10,192
we’re in the same place so often. I never feel

1009
01:02:10,248 –> 01:02:14,096
capable or confident to do what I’m called to do. And I

1010
01:02:14,120 –> 01:02:17,760
have put God to the test several times. And so I’m so

1011
01:02:17,832 –> 01:02:21,504
thankful for that witness in the bible of a man who God

1012
01:02:21,544 –> 01:02:25,328
could use in spite of his meager faith. So,

1013
01:02:25,416 –> 01:02:28,364
Dr. Barna, thank you so much for your time today.

1014
01:02:28,864 –> 01:02:32,692
Again, everybody, please go out and get

1015
01:02:32,788 –> 01:02:35,876
Raising Spiritual Champions. This book is so

1016
01:02:35,940 –> 01:02:39,388
powerful that my wife won’t let me read it yet

1017
01:02:39,516 –> 01:02:43,196
until she’s done with it. Go get a copy. It’s really good.

1018
01:02:43,300 –> 01:02:46,304
Dr. Barna, how can our listeners connect with you?

1019
01:02:47,084 –> 01:02:50,860
There are different places they could go. You know, here at the cultural research center

1020
01:02:50,892 –> 01:02:54,740
at Arizona Christian University, we’ve got a website so they could go to

1021
01:02:54,772 –> 01:02:58,580
culturalresearchcenter.com. I’ve got a website. It’s got

1022
01:02:58,612 –> 01:03:02,364
the books, all the reports. The reports are all free. They can get

1023
01:03:02,404 –> 01:03:06,052
those there. GeorgeBarna.com so there are

1024
01:03:06,068 –> 01:03:09,660
various ways of connecting. So I look forward to hopefully

1025
01:03:09,692 –> 01:03:13,500
helping people. Yeah, thank you so much. And I want to ask you to head

1026
01:03:13,532 –> 01:03:17,300
over to our website, thinkingdad.net dot. You can find

1027
01:03:17,332 –> 01:03:20,744
the show notes there for everything Dr. Barna talked about today.

1028
01:03:21,124 –> 01:03:24,846
Also, you’ll find a link to our store where you can pick up your

1029
01:03:24,870 –> 01:03:28,678
own “Think Biblically” t-shirt. And while you’re there, sign

1030
01:03:28,726 –> 01:03:32,494
up for our newsletter. Because this is a seasonal show, that’s

1031
01:03:32,534 –> 01:03:36,190
really the best way to know what’s coming. If you feel led, you can

1032
01:03:36,222 –> 01:03:39,558
also make a donation to support the Thinking Dad in this

1033
01:03:39,606 –> 01:03:42,182
ministry. Check it out. Thinkingdad.net.

1034
01:03:42,238 –> 01:03:45,998
I hope you’ve been encouraged today. Stick around

1035
01:03:46,046 –> 01:03:49,390
to the end to hear a clip of what’s coming up next time on the

1036
01:03:49,422 –> 01:03:52,434
Thinking Dad and we’ll see you back here real soon.

1037
01:03:56,374 –> 01:03:59,822
We are made, not some of us, not the

1038
01:03:59,918 –> 01:04:03,246
highest earners, not the fanciest jobs.

1039
01:04:03,430 –> 01:04:07,278
All people were made in the image and likeness

1040
01:04:07,326 –> 01:04:11,022
of God. Every human being is

1041
01:04:11,118 –> 01:04:14,526
made with not only the blessing of the

1042
01:04:14,550 –> 01:04:18,006
uniquely human things, that we have an eternal

1043
01:04:18,070 –> 01:04:21,914
destiny, that we have a reason,

1044
01:04:22,414 –> 01:04:26,094
that we have attributes that the rest of the created

1045
01:04:26,134 –> 01:04:29,966
order does not have. And what I try to show from the book

1046
01:04:29,990 –> 01:04:33,694
of Genesis is that what this means is that God

1047
01:04:33,734 –> 01:04:37,358
made us uniquely as workers, as

1048
01:04:37,406 –> 01:04:41,190
producers, as co creators. With him, he

1049
01:04:41,222 –> 01:04:44,946
did not ask the plants or the animals or the mountains or the

1050
01:04:44,970 –> 01:04:48,658
waves to make things out of his

1051
01:04:48,706 –> 01:04:52,362
creation. He only asked us to do that. He only

1052
01:04:52,418 –> 01:04:56,234
gave us with the dignity that comes with being an

1053
01:04:56,274 –> 01:05:00,114
image bearer of him. I think it’s a profound theological

1054
01:05:00,194 –> 01:05:03,778
truth and I think it’s a beautiful part of

1055
01:05:03,826 –> 01:05:07,482
our understanding of anthropology, the human

1056
01:05:07,618 –> 01:05:11,290
person as being uniquely made in the image of

1057
01:05:11,322 –> 01:05:14,914
God. I want people to kind of stop the language of

1058
01:05:14,954 –> 01:05:18,674
saying that what we do and who we are are

1059
01:05:18,714 –> 01:05:22,482
two totally different things, because they are not.

1060
01:05:22,618 –> 01:05:26,154
There is nobody that sees a person

1061
01:05:26,234 –> 01:05:29,930
out working hard, serving others, putting great

1062
01:05:30,002 –> 01:05:33,822
effort into things, getting great results, and having

1063
01:05:33,878 –> 01:05:37,598
character in doing it. There’s no one who looks at that and then

1064
01:05:37,646 –> 01:05:41,374
looks at someone laying on the couch, sleeping all day, not

1065
01:05:41,414 –> 01:05:45,246
pulling their weight, living off of the efforts of others, and thinks, oh,

1066
01:05:45,270 –> 01:05:48,862
wow, those two are the same thing. Everybody

1067
01:05:48,918 –> 01:05:51,934
knows that there is a difference and that the difference is

1068
01:05:51,974 –> 01:05:54,494
identifiable in the activity.

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